Commissioner Diane Koken. [Good morning. I’m Commissioner Diane Koken]…from Pennsylvania, and on behalf of Pennsylvania and on behalf of Governor Rich and the Pennsylvania Insurance Department, we are very pleased to host this meeting of the NAIC’s Holocaust Insurance Issues Working Group. A warm welcome to Deborah Senn from Washington, the insurance commissioner who chairs the group. I also would like to thank her and her staff as well as Ellen Wilcox of the NAIC for their help in bringing this forum together. The human toll of the Holocaust is almost beyond comprehension. The millions of lives that were lost can truly never be forgotten. But nor can the financial ruin that has inflicted the victims, their survivors and their heirs. The purpose of our working group is to probe allegations that the victims and heirs were denied benefits on insurance policies that were paid in good faith. We hope that by sharing information we can better understand what took place those decades ago and what can be done to resolve the issue. I’d like to take a moment to have each of the individuals at the head table introduce themselves and we can start with Delaware.

>>Mike Teichman from Delaware. Steve Kinion from Oklahoma. Leslie Tick from California. Ellen Wilcox from the NAIC. Jay Angoff, Missouri Insurance Commissioner. Deborah Senn, Washington State Insurance Commissioner. Tim Knapp from Pennsylvania. Paul DeAngelo from New Jersey. Ron Kreiter from Kentucky.

Commissioner Koken. I would urge you to note that there is an agenda which is outside if you don’t have a copy of it. We are also encouraging that if there’s anyone here who has not indicated previously their desire to present testimony, we would welcome that testimony and we would ask you to give your name outside so that we can add you to the agenda. At this point I’d like to recognize Commissioner Senn.

Commissioner Deborah Senn. Thank you, Commissioner Koken. I appreciate the hospitality of the state of Pennsylvania in extending their facilities for this hearing. As you know, this is the National Association of Insurance Commissioners Holocaust [Insurance] Issues Working Group. We have had public hearings around the country in Washington, D.C., in Florida, in Los Angeles, in Chicago, and in Seattle, Washington, so this is the next in a series of hearings. We will be meeting in New York City on the 16^th of February, a week from Monday. We have 20 states involved, actually I understand 21 states now, Oklahoma has asked to join the working group, that are actively involved in the working group although every commissioner in the country has indicated their interest and support of this issue and of the survivors in their respective states. We’ve had these public hearings to give survivors an opportunity to tell their story and bring information to us. Also, in January the commissioners met in Washington, D.C. We met with Allianz and Generali at that time. We have made some requests of them and we, as a working group, are working on the claims. So I just want to thank everyone for the hard work they’ve done, and of course thank the survivors for coming and having the courage to share their stories with us. And let me say to the survivors that we are doing, as commissioners, we are doing everything we can to get these claims resolved so that we can have the full justice of the law behind us so that we can make sure that people have their claims paid. So with that, I’ll defer to Commissioner Koken and we can go forward. Actually, she reminds me, let me, since everybody introduced themselves, I’ll just indicate for the record that the states of Delaware, Oklahoma, California, Missouri, Washington, New Jersey, Kentucky and of course Pennsylvania are represented at this hearing today.

Commissioner Koken. We’d like to start by recognizing the Honorable Lita Cohen, who is a member of our Pennsylvania House of Representatives. We appreciate your willingness to join us. If you’d like to…

Representative Lita Cohen. I’m fine right here. I’d just like to thank all of you and welcome all of you on behalf of the Philadelphia area, and [the] members of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives. Welcome to our neighborhood. Certainly I think we all have to thank Governor Rich and Commissioner Koken for providing us with this opportunity to express our views and tell our stories. It is heartwarming to us that all of you are here to give us a hug, tell us that we are not forgotten, to settle these matters and provide an opportunity for those victims to rest in peace based upon what you have done and your part for all of us so we thank you all for being here and we certainly welcome the opportunity to express our views and have these matters settled. Thank you very much.

Commissioner Koken. Thank you. The second item on the agenda is a presentation by Mr. Scott Vayer representing Generali.

Commissioner Senn. Let me just say this very quickly. It has been the normal procedure, in most of the hearings, to have the survivors testify and the insurers have gone last. Mr. Vayer, for time reasons requested that they go early on the agenda and Mr. Vayer, we’re going to give you what, about 15 minutes? <Yes, I timed it last night and that’s about right> Okay, and I hope you will keep to your time. Thanks. Welcome Mr. Vayer.

Mr. Vayer. Thank you Commissioner Senn, Commissioner Koken, thank you for having us today. Members of the Holocaust working committee of the NAIC, thank you for having us and members of the public, we appreciate the opportunity to be here today and tell you something about Assicurazioni Generali who I am the attorney for. On behalf of Generali I would like to thank you. I am the lead counsel for Generali in the United States in connection with this matter. Clearly some people have policies issued by European insurers before World War II that have not been paid. The issue today is why those policies have not been paid. With respect to Generali, at least, it is not an issue of treatment or mistreatment of Jews or the Holocaust. On the contrary, it is about the devastation that was wrought throughout Europe during World War II and the Communist takeover in the aftermath of the War. We’re going to present some slides, I hope that you’ll be able to see them, Commissioners, I realize the position of the screen is not…yes, you do have copies in your packet, that’s correct. Although we have been meeting with commissioners and others with respect to the issues raised, this is the first public hearing we have attended and I just want to spend at least part of my time to set out some very basic facts, which we believe will go a long way toward correcting the preconceptions and misconceptions about who Generali is and what the company’s history has been, facts that have gone largely unreported by the media. Generali has had a long and close affiliation with the Jewish people. Generali was established in 1831 by a group of Jewish merchants in Trieste, Italy. Today the firm is not only a prominent insurer throughout Europe and elsewhere, but it was Generali that in the 1930s founded MigDal Insurance Company in Jewish Palestine. Just this past year Generali made the largest non-leveraged foreign investment ever in an Israeli financial institution when it increased its interest in MigDal to 60% with an investment of more than 300 million dollars. And today, Generali, through MigDal, is the leading insurer in the state of Israel. Generali’s present is as closely linked with the Jewish people as its past. Generali’s Board chairman, Antoine Bernheim, is a survivor of Auschwitz, he lost both of his parents in concentration camps. He has keen interest in the issues that have been reported about the company and our concern to all of you here today. The company’s sensitivity to these issues is nothing new. During World War II Generali regularly came to the aid of its Jewish employees. For example, the company helped place employees in overseas offices and made contacts on their behalf with personal acquaintances in countries where offices did not exist. For example, during the Fascist era, an official at Generali headquarters wrote to a contact in Buenos Aires, Argentina, seeking assistance in finding work for Adolfo Finzi, a valued employee, a Jewish employee, who had to "resign his post for obvious reasons," a reference to the racial laws that prohibited Jews from working in positions of authority, including insurance. Generali went on to assist Mr. Finzi securing legal entry into Argentina and finding employment upon his arrival. Again, in the Spring of 1939, the Generali representatives in Italy and Brazil corresponded regarding an employee named Otto Zeller, who was being forced to leave Italy. He traveled to Brazil where he began working for Generali’s office in Rio de Janeiro. As you can see from this letter, Generali worked to secure legal entry into Brazil for Mr. Zeller. His short letter of appreciation, which I would like to read to you, in its entirety, speaks volumes about this tragic time. It’s not on the screen.

Most honored commandatore:

It is from the bottom of my heart that I write these words to express my enormous gratitude for the sympathy shown to me in allowing me to continue in Brazil the work that I have carried out conscientiously and enthusiastically in the company for so many years. I am determined to continue to serve the company with the same commitment and the same sentiment that has thus far inspired me in my work and I am confident to succeed in carrying out the tasks assigned to me, giving you no cause to regret the trust you have placed in me. Please accept the affectionate devotion with which I remain.

Another Jewish employee, Cav.Gino Tolentino was assisted with a hasty escape from persecution to haven in Argentina [while] working for the company. Company archives also hold accounts of aid given to the Italian Resistance during World War II. On April 27, 1945, Giovanni Moncalvo, with authorization from the directors of Generali, set a machine gun on the balcony of the Generali building in the main square of Turin. He began firing on German tank emplacements across the square, scoring repeated hits. However, his salvos were no match for the return fire from the German tanks, which killed him. The municipality of Turin commemorated this historic event with a plaque placed on a column of the Generali building. Generali’s conduct during World War II is also something it is proud of. This is a letter from August 1945 which describes the case of Generali director Michele Sulfina. Sulfina was Jewish. Mr. Sulfina was not allowed to deal with business of the company and he was going to be replaced by a gentleman named Melchiorei. This manager became successor to Mr. Sulfina, who since September 1943, had to hide in order to survive the strenuous search for him made by the Nazis, stimulated with a ransom on his person. Mr. Sulfina also had to conceal his family, likewise in danger, taking refuge in six subsequent residences, squandering his personal savings with irreparable damage. At the end of the presentation I’d actually like to share with the commissioners a copy of a memorandum written by the President of Generali in 1945 which we discovered at the national archives, from which this quote was extracted, discussing the particular case of Mr. Sulfina. At the end of the War, after review of the Allies and the Allied military government, I believe the memorandum which we will come to speaks volumes about the position of Generali as a Jewish-managed company in 1938, as Italy was moving closer to Nazi Germany. As we all know too well, oh, excuse me, the Prefecture of Trieste, himself a survivor of Dachau Concentration Camp, was appointed by the Allied military government, here’s a copy of a letter from the Prefecture of Trieste validating Generali’s conduct during the War. In that letter, he made the point that the company "did not collaborate with the Germans, or the representatives of the Social Republic of Italy." This statement observes that even though two Generali representatives, Cesulieh and Carlo Galli were imprisoned and persecuted by German officials, the company was found to have "continued to comport themselves towards Democratic principles." Prefecture Puecher was in the minority. He survived the camps. Generali was the insurance company of record for many of those who were murdered in the Nazi camps, but contrary to the impression that some people have, the company paid numerous claims of Holocaust victims. Today I would like to show you some of the records located in Generali’s archives that make this clear. This is a picture of one of the actual ledgers used by Generali employees in 1946, 1947, and 1948. In the last column, titled "osservazioni" setting for the reason for death, you will find numerous entries which read "morte in campo di contratemento." Here’s a close-up of the ledger where you can see campo di contratemento as the cause of death entry. Here’s another entry where you can see that the reference is actually to the death camp Mauthausen. <Where was the ledger from?> This ledger referred to the Italian market, it was taken from the Generali warehouse of archives in Trieste. And unfortunately, not many documents of this nature have survived, although we continue to look for them. It Italy there was a great deal more material present because Generali’s head office was in Italy. Many of the records, as I’ll explain to you later, were taken over by the Communists in the east, and it makes it very difficult to come up with evidence of this nature. <inaudible question> No. These are not employees. These are payments that were made to beneficiaries of decedents who perished in the Holocaust. In the post-War era, as Generali learned of people who perished at the hands of the Nazi regime, the company continued to pay claims. However, in many countries, Generali businesses, assets, and the property which backed policyholders’ insurance, were appropriated and nationalized by the Communist regimes which assumed power immediately after the War. Throughout Central and Eastern Europe, Generali’s former offices fell victim to Communist governments. Generali branches in Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland, and others, were among those taken from the company. All assets were taken out of the company hands. As a result, any payments due to the families of Holocaust victims who held Generali policies in these countries must be paid by the companies in whom the Communists vested the very assets which backed those policies and by their successors, all the more so before these countries are permitted to join NATO. The next slides contain the nationalization documents from Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland. Effective October 24, 1946, the government of Czechoslovakia published a decree which outlined the terms of nationalization of private insurance companies. It states that "Private insurance companies in the territory of the Czechoslovak Republic are nationalized by the State." And since I know the issue will come up, I would want to point out that although the effective date of the legislation was October 24, 1946, as a practical matter the effective date of nationalization and loss of control was much earlier, since the Russian Army came into Eastern Europe, and from that point forward there was certainly no control in the hands of those who opposed Communists. The next document is the Czech government’s declaration of nationalization. You will note that the document states that Assicurazioni Generali of Trieste "was taken over with all rights and obligations deriving therefrom by virtue from the order of the Minister of Finance on November 20, 1946." Regarding Generali’s assets in Hungary, here you see a letter from the Hungarian authorities in Budapest, which gives the order to begin the liquidation of Generali. In the case of Generali’s business in Poland, Generali was deprived of the right to do business, and subjected to liquidation by the State. Government decree dated January 3, 1947, makes it clear. "Insurance enterprises, regardless of their legal form, shall be deprived of the right to conduct an insurance activity." This next image reflects the thinking of U.S. government officials at the time and underscores the soundness of Generali’s position today. This letter, written by the American Embassy in Rome, on April 29, 1947, retrieved by us from the National Archives, states that a Congressman’s constituent "should apply to the Government of Poland for any payments due on the policies." Generali will work with you, commissioners, in identifying the successors to Generali, in these various Eastern and Central European countries. We will also assist you in providing documentation regarding expropriation in these countries that can serve as a roadmap for you to continue your review. Generali will work with you toward a just resolution for victims of the Shoah. Now that I’ve given you some of Generali’s history and background, I would like to tell you about Generali’s moral commitment to the Jewish people and to those who were insured by the company who perished in the Holocaust, as well as to victims of the Holocaust generally. In July of 1997, Generali established a policy information center and toll-free number in the United States. Through this center, anyone who believes that they, or a family member or loved one may have held a Generali insurance policy during the World War II era, can request a search of Generali’s archives for information on such policies. Our toll-free 800 number, (800) 456-8174, has processed hundreds of inquiries, and we are currently conducting policy searches based on these inquiries. These records generally include the first page or water copies of policies, or transcript of a first page of a policy, information that was forwarded from regional offices throughout Europe and sent to their processing office in Trieste. We are now in the process of computerizing the Generali policy information center to make searches more efficient. Substantial progress has been made, in fact we expect to have the first phase of this process complete within one week. We have invited representatives from Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem, to view the information process and procedures, and we have pledged to work with Yad Vashem to supply the Museum with the names of Holocaust victims and other date so that they may be remembered appropriately in the Hall of Names. Generali has established a fund in the sum of 12 million dollars in memory of those of the company’s insured who perished in the Holocaust or were victims of the Holocaust. Fund monies will be given to organizations and public bodies dedicated to the eternalization of the memory of the Holocaust, to the assistance of Holocaust victims and their families, and they may be applied toward discretionary payments to those who held Generali policies before World War II in Eastern and Central Europe, or to their loved ones who survived them. The fund has been established to support these activities throughout the world, not just Israel. This public fund is being administered as a non-profit trust by an independent board of trustees, chaired by the Honorable Dov Levin, a retired justice of the Supreme Court of Israel. Also sitting as trustees are Gad Komran, owner of Combiant Insurance Brokers and a member of the management committee of Keren Yad Vashem, Zvi Barak, former manager of the Jewish Agency Finance Department, Yechiel Grantstein, trustee of Yad Vashem and former manager of the State of Israel Welfare Ministry, and Uri Slonim, a member of the Board of Directors at MigDal and a prominent attorney. The trust will be publishing its procedures for applications shortly and will be publicizing these procedures worldwide. All of your constituents are welcome to contact the Board of Trustees to apply to this fund. I know this statement has taken a fair amount of time to go through but we believe these are all important facts to get on the table. I thank you again for this opportunity and I will try to answer questions that you have. I would like, however, before we begin the questions, to just distribute to you for a moment this new piece of information, which, when I last met you, I didn’t have yet. I refer to the Cesulieh statement. Do we have enough? We may not have quite enough, but if you could share copies for the moment, we’ll furnish more after the session.

Commissioner Koken. We appreciate your willingness to come and discuss the efforts that Generali is making. I’m sure that my fellow commissioners and other state representatives do have questions. I actually would like to start. To the extent that you indicated that you had hundreds of inquiries on your toll-free number, have you actually paid any claims as a result of those inquiries and approximately how long does it take to search the records once you get a complaint or a claim from someone?

Mr. Vayer. Commissioner Koken, I believe, let me take those in reverse order. I believe that now that the computerization will be complete in about a week, they actually told me it would be a day but in the interest of conservatism I said a week, but I believe that next week we’ll be able to begin processing claims. I must say that the policy information center is not a claims processing center, it is an information processing center. I believe that the process that they go through which involves putting the name of the original insured into the computer, along with some other index to narrow the scope, because there are many multiple references to the same type of name, many Friedmans for example, and then there’s also the issue of different spellings, but working through the computerized search will take a matter of minutes. It doesn’t take long at all. Thereafter, if there is a lead that’s determined, what will happen is the computer spits out the policy number of the original paperwork that was issued, and then a physical search is done on the old books, which they have in the archive. The whole process takes a matter of a couple of days. The data that’s then recovered is then entered in the computer. The company is trying to do a status report for people who write, we will not just furnish a copy of the policy documents, or a transcript of the policy documents that we find, but we will actually go through financial records that we have, which were not kept originally for the purposes of doing the kind of detective work that we’re now doing, they were kept for the purpose of preparing balance sheets for the company as a whole. We’ve established a way to determine something about the policy, we may not be able to tell when a policy was entirely paid up, or kept in force, we may not be able to tell what was happening in the actual local market where this policy was issued, but we can at least see what the status of the policy was in the Italian headquarters for balance sheet purposes, so the extent that status could be determined, we’re going to make that status available to the inquiring parties as well. That process takes a little bit longer, because it requires us to go through a process of inference, and that could take a couple of days. But in all, I would imagine that the process from start to finish takes a week or less. The only issue is the volume of work that has to be done, and of course people have been writing in, we’ve queued up those requests, so there is a backlog. The other thing that you asked is whether claims have been paid, and the answer to that is that all claims, all the requests for documentation that I’ve seen, have originated in the markets of Central and Eastern Europe. Generali’s position is that in Central and Eastern Europe, its assets were taken. It was expropriated, the company was liquidated, the assets that were set up to fund these policies by local law were kept in those local jurisdictions, these policies were all reserved for, it’s not like property and casualty insurance where reserves are not set up at the time you sell the insurance policy, this is life insurance, reserves were set up. Those reserves were generally held in the form of local financial assets, generally government securities, or in the form of real estate. And I must say that I believe predominantly the reserves were in real estate. That real estate was taken by the Communist governments. It exists today, it’s still there, and we believe that the successor companies, which also exist today, and in many cases still have the title to this real estate, to these assets, should be called to account for what they’ve taken, and that persons who are making these claims should be entitled to get payment from these companies. Historically, these other companies in countries of Communist Eastern Europe and Central Europe, have refused on varying grounds to pay people who were not living in those countries on these policies. In particular, for example, the government of Poland did pay various persons who made applications as creditors of Generali on behalf of these policies, but they refused to pay anybody who did not reside permanently in the state of Poland. We don’t see any logical, reasonable or rational basis for that, never have, and we’ve supported the insured in every attempt to collect from the state of Poland and we’ll continue to do so. Perhaps in today’s climate, with the renewed attention, together we’ll be able to do something about this.

Commissioner Koken. Are there other questions?

Director Jay Angoff. How many claims then for those Holocaust survivors who have called on your 800 number have you paid?

Mr. Vayer. We haven’t paid claims. What we have done is made clear to people that they can apply to the 12 million dollar fund which we have set up, which recognizes the moral commitment.

Director Angoff. That’s fine. But I just want to make sure what the answer is to that question, and the answer is zero then. Is that correct?

Mr. Vayer. We’ve paid no claims originating from Eastern and Central Europe and I don’t believe any claims from other than Eastern and Central Europe have originated through the 800 number, whether here in the United States or through the mailbox in Israel, or elsewhere in the world that services the policy information center.

Director Angoff. You’ve paid no claims.

Mr. Vayer. That’s correct.

Director Angoff. Let me ask you this. During the War, how did you organize your records, as far as the origination of the policy was concerned? Did you keep records, for example, that would indicate to you whether the policyholder was Jewish?

Mr. Vayer. Well, certainly Commissioner, I can’t give you personal knowledge of what was done during the War years, because I’m too young. I wasn’t there, and I haven’t spoken to anybody who was. However, in looking at the records we have found, that’s not the way they’re organized, and I haven’t been able to see any markings on the records that would indicate that they were segregated into racial categories. So as far as I can tell, they were kept in an entirely integrated form. They were kept market by market, and they were kept according to policy number. Probably back at that time there was an alphabetical index which related alphabetical names, last names, to policy numbers, and that would allow one a way into the records, because you could do an alphabetical look up and then find the policy. Those indexes did not survive, we do not have those indexes, which is why we have had to go through the process of computerization, so that we can generate the policy numbers, and from the policy numbers, which relate to the consecutive compiling, which is kept in the company archives of policy documents, we can then go do a look-up.

Director Angoff. Were they organized by country or by region within the country?

Mr. Vayer. They were organized according to political subdivisions which generally was country, in some cases those political subdivisions changed over the years, so I can’t tell you that they were actually organized in a way that’s easy for us today to understand. Because sometimes you will find that they were organized according to, for example, areas that were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, then an area would no longer be part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, would be kept separately, and these categories shifted and were relatively fluid. The attempt, apparently, in any given time period, was to organize them regionally, according to political subdivision.

Director Angoff. Would Generali voluntarily agree to a delegation from the National Association of Insurance Commissioners coming to its archives in Trieste and looking at its archives?

Commissioner Senn. Let me just interject here, Commissioner Angoff, because we asked Generali that question two weeks ago in Washington, D.C., and we still don’t have an answer. We want to make sure we get a very clear answer today, Mr. Vayer, we’ve been waiting for the answer.

Mr. Vayer. Thank you for repeating the question, Commissioner Senn, but I do recall when we were in Washington, Commissioner Angoff said he was going to forward a proposal, and I’ve actually been expecting that, so I believe at the time, Commissioner Angoff suggested that it would be possible, he thought, to create, or craft, a written proposal which would recognize the difficulties of litigation, because as you know this matter is in litigation, I am an attorney in that litigation, and the court has given us explicit directions in regards to discovery for that litigation, and there are issues related to opening warehouses and archives in Italy while this case is still pending. There are also issues related to – I’m sorry, Commissioner – <go ahead, finish your sentence> There are also issues relating to the regulatory powers of the Italian insurance authorities, and the way in which your regulatory powers would affect those regulatory powers, so it’s obviously a matter that involves issues of diplomatic relations and solvency. I’m certainly anxious to see Commissioner Angoff’s proposal, however.

Commissioner Senn. Excuse me, Mr. Vayer, I asked the question at the January meeting. And this is the question that we asked, and I asked it on behalf of the working group. And that question was, will Generali allow a group of examiners representing the National Association of Insurance Commissioners to come to the company and examine their books and records. Now, my recollection is that I asked the question, I said we have some additional questions that we would get to you in writing, and in fact we have quite a list of questions prepared for you, but the question of whether or not Generali would be willing to allow us to send examiners was stated to you orally, we can write it down, I can write it down for you right now, and it really takes a yes or no answer. And we know about jurisdictional issues, we know about the lawsuit, but the question is because Generali has indicated its willingness to work with us and cooperate with us, the first question is will you be willing to have our examiners come inside the company and look at the books and records? So. That’s the question, and what we’d like to know is when can you give us an answer? And if you’d like the question in writing this morning, I’m sorry we’ve had a delay of two weeks, I thought it was fairly clear when we met in Washington, D.C.

Mr. Vayer. I must confess to you that I was expecting a proposal from Commissioner Angoff, that I had assumed he would review with you, and I thought that it was going to be based upon some rather more complex solutions because of the nature of the litigation and the jurisdictional issues. I would like it in writing, I will certainly take it back to the company, and since I will be appearing in New York I’m sure we’ll have another opportunity to discuss this, and we may even be able to discuss it before New York. In principle, as you know, we have invited representatives of Yad Vashem to come to Trieste. We have talked with several others about the possibility, we are anxious to show the commissioners those very things that we’ve made available to the public. There are, however, other issues relating to the way in which records are kept and matters of litigation, which have to be discussed. I think if you forward a written proposal we can take it from there.

Director Angoff. Mr. Vayer, I don’t recall committing to giving you a written proposal, obviously, we’ve got no objection to doing that and we’ll do that immediately. We’re obviously glad to discuss various conditions. I realize there are a lot of things to be worked out. We’ll be glad to sit down with your client and talk about that at any time. On the other hand, if you’re telling us now, that no, because of litigation or whatever reason you do not want insurance commissioners coming over to Trieste and looking at your archives, you should save us all a lot of time and tell us that.

Mr. Vayer. I’m not telling you that, Commissioner. I am anxious to see your proposal. I was [anxious] when we met in Washington, still am, and I’m sure that the company is. I’m sure that they’ll give it fair and serious consideration.

Director Angoff. Then we’ll get that to you very quickly.

Commissioner Senn. We will get it to you and let me ask you to be prepared to answer the question about our examining our books and records when we meet in New York. I assume you’ll be in New York. Are you based out of New York, Mr. Vayer? <Yes, I am.> Okay, so I assume you’ll be in New York on the 16^th [of February]. We will get you the questions ahead of time, obviously you won’t be able to answer all the questions in a week, and we certainly understand that, because we have prepared a list and it’s already about 4 or 5 pages of questions. I don’t want to take up the time to ask them of you today, but what I also would like, I appreciate your indication of cooperation with the NAIC, particularly with regard to the successor companies, and that information, and so what I would like to ask is that you be prepared to basically set up a time with us, where we can sit down with the company, and have a number of questions with regard to the successor companies, with regard to ownership, with regard to real estate assets, and all that information which you’ve put on the table today and for which we can have some answers, because we have some very specific questions. Those would take up quite a bit of time and I don’t want to do that today.

Mr. Vayer. I welcome that opportunity, Commissioner.

Commissioner Senn. Okay. So we will be able to set a time for a delegation to sit down with Generali and get some of these questions answered, I presume in New York, or Trieste, or whatever.

Mr. Vayer. Certainly. I hope we’ll be able to answer them. As you know we don’t have all the information, but what we do have we will look forward to sharing with you.

Commissioner Senn. Let me ask you just a couple of quick questions then. The reference you made to successor companies holding your assets. Could you name who you’re referring to, just very quickly?

Mr. Vayer. For example, in Czechoslovakia, the name of the company that eventually took over was called Czeslovenska Pohrzhestovna Nurodny Povnik (sp?). Later that became a company called Stodtney Pohrzhestovna. That’s in Czechoslovakia. In Poland, the company, my Polish really isn’t good enough to pronounce the name, but it goes by the initials ‘PZU.’ That company is still in business. And perhaps when we sit down with you commissioner, we can share with you some letters, some correspondence that was forwarded to us by insureds who after contacting Generali and being referred to PZU did apply to PZU and were given rejections. And we’ll share with you the reasons why, because we don’t think that those were appropriate rejections.

Commissioner Senn. Let me just ask you quickly, Commissioner Angoff asked you if you had paid any claims, and you made a reference to Central and Eastern Europe. Is it the company’s position, and I understand that it is, but I want to make sure that I state this correctly, that any claims arising out of Central and Eastern Europe in which there were communist governments and there was forced nationalization of the company’s assets, have released Generali from liability from those claims?

Mr. Vayer. That’s correct.

Commissioner Senn. Let me finally ask you, with regard to your 800 number, there was a number of full-page ads several months ago with regard to the 800 number and the fact that a third-party was going to be looking at or processing these claims. I don’t have a copy of the ad with me. Has that taken place, is there a third-party, an auditor, who is looking at or processing the claims, or is Generali processing the claims?

Mr. Vayer. In the United States the claims are processed by a third party in the sense that contractors are used. These are commercial contractors who handle telephone processing and whatnot. I think the answer to your question, in processing the claims themselves, these are being done by Generali at its warehouses in Trieste, at its offices in Trieste. When I say warehouse it’s really one particular warehouse, it’s not six stories high, it’s one story, I’ve been there. It does have three levels of rack shelving, I think is what you’d call it, but the documents are secure there. It’s not decrepit, it’s a well-run modern warehouse. There is a third party there that operates the warehouse as a contractor for Generali, also, but that’s really just paper handling. I can tell you that you should all feel confident and competent that Generali is certainly doing everything that it can to be certain that nothing gets destroyed, that everything is preserved. The moment that this matter came to the floor and came to Generali’s attention, we did take steps to make sure that nothing gets destroyed over there without double signature from legal department. When I say nothing gets destroyed, you must understand that Generali is a very large company, and they generate lots of modern paper. But even before modern paper will be discarded it has to be signed off in the legal department by two signatures. We’ve also entered into an agreement with the plaintiff’s counsel in the New York federal action, pursuant to which we have committed that nothing will be destroyed and that we would seek to gather in all documents that we could locate covering the period between 1920 and 1945 relating to this matter, and that we would not only do it for Generali itself, but that we would also notify any company which Generali controls and advise them that they have to undertake the same steps, that they must notify us immediately of any documents that they find. Most of them of course have really no connection to this matter, however.

Commissioner Koken. I’d like to open it up, are there any other questions?

Paul DeAngelo. Good morning. You’ve shown us some records from back in 1945, ‘46 and ‘47. The records that indicate that claims were paid, if I understood you correctly, they were from ‘46, ‘47 and ‘48? <That’s correct.> Can you determine from those records where those policies originated from? What branch of the company?

Mr. Vayer. Those were from Italy, those were policies issued in Italy, out of the Italian offices.

Mr. DeAngelo. So they were issued in Italy? <That’s correct.> Now, there seems to be quite a gap here. We see records from ‘45, ‘46, ‘47, ‘48, then we jump to what Generali’s doing today. You seem to have done extensive research into the history of Generali. In that research, have you found any indication of any attempt by the company to identify policies for claims that did not come in, and to find those people?

Mr. Vayer. Actually, I have not yet found anything of that nature. It is not perhaps the kind of thing that life insurance companies typically get into, maybe, they are happy when the claims don’t arrive. I must tell you that in 1946, ‘47, ‘48, we had some records, there are additionally I think records from after that date, we brought you those records because of their proximity to the War, but we can probably share with you other records that show that claims did proceed long after the period that you would ordinarily consider to have been in the normal course of business. But again, those are payments in the West, not payments relating to the Communist-dominated Eastern Bloc countries.

Mr. DeAngelo. Well I don’t think this is a typical situation, and I’m a little puzzled about your statement that the payment continued beyond the ordinary course of business. These are life insurance policies, we know that there will be an event that will cause a claim. In the United States, at least in New Jersey, insurance companies don’t keep the money when a claim is [not] submitted on an insurance policy, they have to pay it into the Bureau of Escheat. In Europe, in Italy, what happens when a claim is never submitted on a policy?

Mr. Vayer. I don’t believe it’s the same law, Mr. DeAngelo, but certainly we can follow that up and get you copies of the law. In Italy, there is no doubt that there is a different law for the different jurisdictions in Eastern Europe. I’m sure now, because of their unification process, there’s probably some attempt being made to standardize that, but to tell you the truth I’m not an expert on European law, or European law of escheat, but we can do it and get back to you on that. My comment with respect to the ordinary course of business was merely a reflection of the notion that there is a point in which it is safe to assume that the policyholder, the insured, is probably deceased. And once you get to policies of a certain age, a certain date, and you know that the date of birth of the insured would indicate that he probably hasn’t survived, one would expect… [end of tape] …typically also there are deadlines for presentation of claims, even in American policies there are such things. I believe that notwithstanding, there was a great deal of processing of claims that occurred in Western Europe, in Italy, and a great deal of sorting out that occurred after the War and for many years afterwards. I know that Generali itself has been trying to reconcile matters with the Eastern Bloc countries for about 30 to 40 years before finally throwing up its hands. I believe that many of the arrangements that were concluded with the Eastern Bloc countries such as there were in the late 1960s.

Mr. DeAngelo. Are we to understand that if those policies contained provisions which required them to be submitted in a certain time frame, that Generali would be waiving those provisions with respect to valid claims that are submitted today?

Mr. Vayer. I don’t believe Generali has ever asserted, in the West, with respect to markets in which it hasn’t been expropriated, has asserted any defense based on those policy provisions.

Mr. DeAngelo. In connection with the litigation that’s going on, has Generali asserted any privilege of confidentiality or any other privilege in terms of making these records available for that litigation’s discovery purposes?

Mr. Vayer. In connection with litigation, in all candor, Generali asserts every privilege. As an attorney, I can tell you that when matters are in litigation, they are handled one way. When matters are before regulatory bodies and before the public, there’s a different set of criteria. But in the litigation, we play the same way everybody else plays, which is to say we stand on our legal rights and we do follow the rules of the court.

Mr. DeAngelo. You mentioned an agreement that had been reached with plaintiff’s counsel for the preservation of documents. Would you be so kind as to provide the working group with a copy of that document? Thank you.

Mr. Vayer. I certainly will.

Leslie Tick. I have a couple of questions. Go ahead, Ron.

Ron Kreiter. Good morning, Mr. Vayer, am I to understand the Austrian records are part of the Communist Bloc records?

Mr. Vayer. Not generally. The Austrian records would be part of the Greater Reich in the time period we are talking about.

Mr. Kreiter. And the reason I ask that is this committee heard from an Erica Brodsky in Miami whose father was an agent in Vienna, and that was the basis of my question on whether you [maintain] records on employees, because I’d be real surprised if an agent for a company such as Generali wouldn’t have policies with that same company.

Mr. Vayer. Do you know if Erica Brodsky has forwarded an application for a search?

Mr. Kreiter. No I don’t.

Mr. Vayer. Well I’ll be glad to forward that request to the company if she will contact us. We do need her signature requesting it, but certainly I’ll look into that. If I might, I had mentioned to you earlier, we got right into the question-and-answer, but I did mention to you earlier that I had distributed a memorandum to you, and if I could just for a moment, I’d like to tell you what it is, because it’s not necessarily self-evident. I’d like to point out a couple of provisions which I think, while not necessarily dispositive of anything, will help you to understand the context in which these issues present themselves for Generali. The document I gave you is a memorandum. At the top it states that it is an enclosure to a dispatch dated September 11, 1945, from the American Embassy, Rome. It was attached to a letter from the American Embassy and this was a memorandum prepared by Mr. Cesulieh, who we spoke about earlier in my presentation, who became the president of Generali in 1945 after the War. Mr. Cesulieh was writing this memorandum in connection with the examination of Mr. Sulfina, who I also referred to in my presentation. Mr. Sulfina was Jewish, he was a key man in the administration of the insurance business by Generali, and he continued to work for Generali after the time in 1938 of the racial laws, despite his being Jewish, he worked right through 1943. As a matter of general background, it’s important to understand that in 1943, at the time of the Armistice in the fall of 1943, when Italy no longer was a combatant with the United States, the Germans, the Nazi army rolled down into Italy and invaded. They took over the entire north, they took over Trieste, and the circumstances that had existed up to that point for Jews in Italy ended, changed drastically. Although in Italy, Jews were discriminated against by the racial legislation, Italy never deported Jews to the Nazis, never deported Jews to camps before 1943. In fact, there were other places where the Nazis were not even in power, places like Vichy France, where Jews were actively deported. In Italy, Jews, while they did suffer at the hands of Mussolini’s edicts, they were not deported, they were not placed into concentration camps, many of them were placed in house arrest, and the instances of Jews suffering violence were extremely limited. After 1943, when the Nazis were in control, everything changed, and there were many roundups. Italy suffered, but there is quite a legacy of assistance to Jews by Righteous Gentiles in Italy. Now, after the War, when the Allied military government was able to finally take over in 1945 in the north, they, as elsewhere in Italy, looked at the past of all those who were active during the years when Italy was under Fascist domination. Cesulieh, who as you know was interned by the SS during the time he was operating the company, and as you heard in our presentation, was spoken for by [Prefecture] Puecher who was a Dachau inmate, Cesulieh had already been vetted and his bona fides were beyond reproach. He wrote this letter in defense of Mr. Sulfina, but in context, it points out that it’s necessary to understand what Generali’s history was, if you’re going to understand Sulfina’s history. If you would, I’d just like to point out a couple of paragraphs. The second paragraph, very quickly, the second paragraph on page 1, states that "…it has been characteristic for the company, since it’s origin, to have always had a majority of managers and of capital allotted to Italians of Jewish race, these last ones gathered in Trieste, owing to the persecution organized alternatively by Germans and by Russians in the Balkan peninsula." Two paragraphs later, he states: "Immediately upon the Anschluss and the Sudeten campaign, the Assicurazioni Generali came in conflict with the Germans and at the outbreak of the present war, all the organization of the Company in Central Europe had to submit to the harsh Nazi Laws as it has been the case of companies who had in their capital English participations or interests." I’ll just point out to you quickly, although I think you’ll find the rest of the memo, particularly for commissioners who understand the technical elements, you’ll find the rest of it very interesting. But on page 3, at the middle, with the paragraph beginning "On the contrary," it states "…immediately after the ‘Anschluss,’ the A.G. [Assicurazioni Generali] had begun a policy of demobilization and withdrawal from the positions Generali had in Nazi Central Europe. Here are the most salient facts: Surrender of the majority (in the capital share) of the ‘Fenix’ Company and of all the participations in (capital of) the ‘Olwag’ Company, the ‘Bundeslander’ Company, the ‘Allgis’ Company, and the ‘Heimat’ Company; Surrender of one-quarter of the interest of Generali in the ‘Deutscher Lloyd Leben,’ and the ‘Erste Allgemeine’ Company; Sale of one-half of the majority in the Polish affiliation; Extreme resolution of the complete withdrawal from all business in the Fire and other similar classes of insurance in Germany, started as far back as 1849." What I would like to point out, and at some point I’ll show you further documents, that you can verify, Generali was a company that was managed by Jews. Generali was told, in no uncertain terms, by the Nazis, and by their henchmen, to get out. They were thrown out of certain companies, they were forced out of others, and they liquidated their positions in still others. They suffered severely as a result of the War. During the War, and before the War, Generali tried to get as much latitude as it could, through the political process in Italy, to sequester its assets out of the reach of the Italian War machine.

Commissioner Koken. I don’t want to cut you off, but I do believe, I would like to give California the opportunity to raise their questions.

Leslie Tick. Just briefly, I just wanted to clarify. You said the offices in Poland and Czechoslovakia were branch offices of Generali? <That’s correct.> And the records from Poland and Czechoslovakia and Hungary, are those in Trieste, or were those left in those countries?

Mr. Vayer. Most of those records were left in those countries. They were, they weren’t left by design, they were seized.

Ms. Tick. Do you know if they still exist?

Mr. Vayer. I’ve seen letters from Poland that deny their existence. I saw one letter that suggested that the warehouses were firebombed, but frankly, I believe that some of those records do exist. I know that in Hungary, some of those records do exist in an archive. I believe they also exist in Czechoslovakia.

Ms. Tick. Thank you.

Mr. Vayer. You’re welcome.

Commissioner Koken. We appreciate your willingness to be with us. I think it’s clear from the discussion today that the commissioners and the NAIC have a number of questions that we feel need to be addressed, and need to be resolved, and we would hope to have your cooperation in addressing them all on a very timely basis. This is obviously an issue where the survivors and heirs has gone on far too long and needs to be addressed with some urgency.

Mr. Vayer. I’ll look forward to that, and I understand, Commissioner, that I will be getting written questions. Is that still correct?

Commissioner Senn. You’ll have them Monday morning.

Director Angoff. Let me just ask you one more question. Are we barking up the wrong tree here? Is your basic position that Generali, whatever might be the case with other European insurers, Generali’s a company that was founded by Jews, it’s run by a concentration camp survivor today, it’s been run by Jews throughout its history, and that far, far from profiting from Jews who were murdered during the War, Generali also is in a way a victim of the Nazis and the Fascists, and that far from profiting from Jewish suffering, Generali did its best to protect and to even hide Jews during the War? Is that a fair assessment of your position?

Mr. Vayer. That is absolutely my position, Commissioner Angoff. And I wouldn’t assert that position if I didn’t feel it was supported by the facts. I would like to work with you to come to the same conclusions. I just wish that the commissioners would understand that because we are engaged in litigation the process is a little bit difficult to unfold.

Director Angoff. Generali was run by Jews during the War?

Mr. Vayer. Generali was run by Jews right up until the War. The chairman was a guy named Morpurgo (sp?) who resigned voluntarily in order to have somebody else take his position so that more latitude could be gained for the company, so that they could move assets outside the hands of the Italian Fascists. And we will document exactly how that was done. I am a young fellow. I was not alive at the time. For us, this is as much a matter of historical inquiry as I think it is for the commissioners and for some of the other heirs of survivors who themselves were not alive at the time. But all the evidence that I’ve seen suggests that was the case. I gave you the document of Cesulieh today because this is essentially a brief on facts that was written at the time, and I should point out to you that I have another document that shows that this position was accepted by the Allied Military Government, it was authenticated, and the Allied Military Government in doing that made a very thorough inquiry in which they exhaustively searched the record. We have those documents that say they exhaustively searched the record. I don’t have the entire record, however. But I’ll be glad to share this with you.

Commissioner Senn. Who ran the company right after the War? ’46, ’47, ’48, those years?

Mr. Vayer. After the War, Barrancini (sp?) who actually was a Fascist, I point out a Fascist, not a Nazi, because there was a difference. He was permitted to continue to run the company after the War, during the post-War years.

Commissioners Senn/Koken. Thank you very much.

Mr. Vayer. You’re welcome.

Commissioner Koken. Next on the agenda, we have an opportunity to hear from Linda Gerstel and Joanne Zack who are the attorneys for the plaintiffs in the class-action suit brought by the Holocaust survivors. We also have three survivors, Dr. Gustav Beck, Mr. Samuel Wolf, and we have added Mrs. Ellen Josepher to the list of individuals who will be providing testimony to us. We appreciate very much their willingness to come and do appreciate how very difficult this is for them, so if you’d like to [come forward, do so.] Welcome.

Dr. Gustav Beck. First of all I’d like to thank the commission for giving me the privilege of testifying before you. My name is Gustav J. Beck, I’m a physician. I was born in Vienna. My father was a leather merchant, a very successful leather merchant. His name was Oskar. My mother Helene was a very bright woman, at one time a representative in Austria for a big shoe factory, I believe it was a Czechoslovakian shoe factory. I myself came to the United States in 1938 from Vienna, where I was born [on] May 7, 1920. My father and mother joined me after a long and difficult trip through Germany and Holland just before the War in December. I know for a fact that my father had a life insurance policy with a company by the name of Fenix (sp?). I had seen the policy myself, and I have to take the responsibility that I eliminated the policy after the death of my mother, simply because I thought there was no hope to recover any of that money. I have evidence in an autobiography that my mother wrote that there was a policy, she wrote it in there and that she didn’t know what happened to it, what happened to her money. It is my impression, although I cannot be absolutely certain, that the policy was written out of Zurich. The one thing that I do remember that it stated in the policy that it was payable in gold currency of the Swiss government. It was for a considerable sum of money. I want to state here that I have no need of the money. If any money comes out of this I would give it to charity, in the cause of the other survivors. We were very fortunate to survive. Some members of my family were not as fortunate. I’ve lost 3 uncles and 3 aunts in the Holocaust. One of the gentlemen that died in the Holocaust was an uncle of mine who was a director of the First Property and Fire Insurance Company of Austria. He had a horrible time and I have letters from him where he begged to come to the United States but didn’t make it. I assume that my uncle, Heinrich Beck and his wife had insurance policies. I doubt that a man that was in the insurance field would not have had life insurance policies. Just to terminate my testimony, I’d like to read from a letter that I’ve received from a cousin of mine from in England, just he wrote the letter on November 27, 1997. I just would like to read a short paragraph. This is one area in the letter.

Heinrich Beck, birthdate (I’m translating) February 4, 1881. His wife, Natalie (Heli Beck) born Axelrod (sp?), birthdate 20/12/1895. Last known address Vienna 17, Braungasse 48, date of deportation November 23, 1941. Deportation location, Riga. Death at camp in Kona (sp?) and he was killed by SS in the town, and the man that killed him was Commandantenfeurer Jaeger, which translated means Hunter.

So we have the name of the man that killed him. I just wanted to mention this so that you get an impression that I’ve got documentation of all of this.

Commissioner Koken. Dr. Beck, I appreciate your testimony. Are you saying that your mother actually had a written autobiography, and you still have it <I have it here> which lists or mentions this policy?

Dr. Beck. I have it here. It’s on page 74 and 75.

Commissioner Koken. And does it include a policy number or an amount of the insurance?

Dr. Beck. I assume that she wrote the policy when she was in the rehabilitation center in Jersey City when she was 85 years old and she probably would not have had the policy. I probably had the policy because I think I eliminated the policy after her death.

Commissioner Koken. Does anybody else have any questions?

Mr. DeAngelo. Dr. Beck, have you made application to Fenix (sp?) or its successor to process a claim on your behalf?

Dr. Beck. I think I have to let our lawyer answer the question for the simple reason namely that Fenix (sp?) had been merged with other companies, several other companies, and certain departments, there’s some difficulty knowing what the specific successor company is. I think it’s important also to find out what companies were merged into Allianz from what I hear, and which one. Thank you.

Commissioner Koken. Mr. Wolf?

Mr. Samuel Wolf. Good morning. I am Samuel Wolf. I reside here in Philadelphia. First of all I would like to thank all of you commissioners for coming here and helping us to develop the right of getting our policies paid. I would like to briefly start by saying that I have lost 39 members of my family. I was born on July 10, 1923, in Boryslaw, Poland, at that time. Now it’s Ukraine. My parents, Feiwel and Amelia, my parents, I have a surviving sister in Montreal, Canada. I attended school in my home town of Boryslaw, I went to the Gymnasium, and after that [my town] was occupied for close to two years by the Russians. It was split between Germany and Russia. My hometown was on the Russian side of the Polish partition. When the Germans came in we went, after a while, we were pushed into Ghettos, and from Ghettos into hard-labor camps in my home town, and I personally in April of 1943 was sent to Plasov (sp?), where Schindler’s List was celebrated and made a picture of, and subsequently to the Amitskaya (sp?) where I worked for the Hankeswerke (sp?) and from there to Mauthausen and from Mauthausen to Lodz, where I was liberated, delivered up, by Governor Milton Shepp (sp?). At that time I didn’t know he would be governor. Let me describe, very briefly, what had transpired. When I was taken to Plasov, and subsequently to Mauthausen. I never believed I would survive. I left behind me my father and my sister. My mother was executed, I have a picture if you are interested in seeing, of my parents and my family, and my father and mother. Here’s the rest of my family. My mother was executed in my home town, together with 1800 other Jews on February 17, 1943. My sister was with my mother at the time they were taken, they were taken together to a place, it was a movie house before, and from that place she was taken, I think, on the 15^th of February, and they were kept there for two days, and they were executed on a Wednesday on February 17^th. My sister survived. My sister survived because our neighbor’s mother, and her daughter was together. And since it was a movie house and the rear floor was elevated, it was a brick floor, and my neighbor picked up a couple of boards, sliding the two girls inside the elevation. When they took everybody and executed them at the same time, at the same place, outside of the city, I was told later on they dug a hole and put boards across with machine guns they executed them and they fell into the pit. For what I know, maybe some of them were buried alive. My father was surviving until April 23^rd, 1944, in my home town, the same camp, was hiding. A week before the Russians occupied the territories, he walked out for food for my sister and for himself and he was shot right there. After the War I learned from a cousin of mine who was a Russian officer in Czechoslovakia that my father was dead, and my sister survived. My sister told me later on when we were reunited in Czechoslovakia in Maratskostrava (sp?) on January 6, it was the day before her birthday, we were reunited in Maratskostrava in Czechoslovakia where she was interned for illegal crossing of the Polish-Czechoslovakian border. She told me that my father is dead, and I asked her where is he buried? I want to bring him to the cemetery, and she told me she doesn’t know. She looked all over and she didn’t see him. Several years later she told me she saw the execution of my father. Until today I cannot understand why she could not tell me that. There are some details more details about my past, but I’m going to bypass that to come to the point. I lived with my wife in Philadelphia in 1957 my wife and I were talking about our pasts, our friends, and my parents were successful businesspeople, we had a stationery store, supplying schools and offices. My father used to sell wholesale and retail. I was talking to my wife at the time, and I said look, I know my father had a policy, and I remember the name of the insurance company. He was insured with Reunione Adriatica di Sicurta in Trieste. I wrote to them. I was surprised I got a return letter, and Ms. Senn has a copy of it, and I did not continue because since they gave me an answer, a vague answer, to that, I forgot about it. Since I don’t throw things away I kept the letter that they sent to me. That was July 1957. At that time we didn’t know about the gold in Switzerland or the insurance companies today, because I felt that the insurance companies should have come forward immediately after the War and give us an answer to the policies that we had. If there are any other questions I’ll be delighted to answer them.

Commissioner Koken. Are there any questions? We very much appreciate your willingness to come and to talk to us.

Mr. Wolf. It’s a privilege to be here.

Commissioner Senn. I do have one question, Mr. Wolf. There’s a number on this letter. Is this a file of the company or is this the number of your policy?

Mr. Wolf. I don’t know.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much.

Commissioner Koken. Mrs. Josepher?

Mrs. Ellen Holstein-Josepher. I am very nervous, so please forgive me. My name is Ellen Josepher and I’d like to add my thanks for your holding this meeting and putting all this effort into trying to obtain the insurance policies that really are due us. I can’t really speak. I was born in Frankfurt, Germany, on July 4, 1922. I don’t know if I can finish. <Take your time.> When I was 9 years old Hitler came to power and I was expelled from school because I was Jewish and my father fought in World War I and he had a successful, very successful business. He manufactured cold cuts and had a retail business. My uncle was the founder of the Hanover Bank in Frankfurt and my dad always mentioned that he took out a dowry insurance policy when I was born because Germany had this great inflation and he paid into it, in dollars, through my 10^th birthday. In 1937 we came to America and we were not allowed to bring any papers. All of our bank accounts were confiscated. My dad sold his business, the money was immediately confiscated, our home. We did bring seven rooms of furniture and paintings and I went to school and my dad and my mother sold a lot of the valuables we were able to bring. <inaudible question> I didn’t give you my maiden name, it was Holstein. My policy would be under that name. I didn’t really know much about the bank accounts and all the other policies my dad had, because I was a child and he just never mentioned it. But he did mention, every once in a while, the name of Allianz, and possibly the dowry insurance policy that he took out for me was there. I was supposed to get $21,000.00 on my 21^st birthday. I was very fortunate to come here and grow up in New York and I married an American and unfortunately my husband died four years ago, so I’m a widow and have two children and five grandchildren. I would appreciate it very much if it were possible to get this policy which really belongs to me. I want to thank you.

Commissioner Senn. I do have one question, and thank you very much for coming and sharing your story with us. This was a dowry policy paid out in dollars?

Mrs. Josepher. Yes, my dad always mentioned that, paid out in dollars.

Ms. Joanne Zack. She’s not familiar with the term "dowry", the way she describes it I believe it was a dowry policy, the way she understands it also, Mrs. Josepher, is that it was paid in U.S. dollars to avoid the German inflation, so it was, I believe, what we would call a dowry policy, but it was also payable in dollars, and she said a "dollar policy."

Mrs. Josepher. Yes, that fact my dad always stressed, that it was a dollar policy.

Commissioner Senn. And when was the policy taken out? What year?

Mrs. Josepher. July 4^th, 1922.

Commissioner Senn. So the policy was paid off by the time they left?

Mrs. Josepher. We left in ’37, but he stopped paying it after my 10^th birthday. I guess it was impossible, first of all, in 1933, Hitler came to power, and my dad’s business declined greatly because there was a boycott, and people were not allowed to buy from Jewish merchants, or Jewish vendors, and also possibly my dad was able to pay it in dollars because of my uncle owning the bank. I was too small, I was never told. I’m sorry. <What was your mother’s maiden name again?> My mother’s maiden name was Hanover, like the bank. Thank you.

Ms. Zack. I’m Joanne Zack, from Cohen, Swift and Graft, a Philadelphia law firm which represents, along with Linda Gerstel of Anderson, Kill & Olick, together with other firms, including Mr. Fagan’s firm, represents the plaintiffs in the litigation that Mr. Vayer mentioned a few times. That litigation was started last March, and we do have information about it outside, if anyone is interested. I wanted to respond, very briefly, to a few things that Mr. Vayer said. I don’t know if this has been previously provided to you, but if not I would like the opportunity to supplement the record with a document from the archives that we located called Axis Penetration of European Insurance, approximately a 50-page document prepared after the end of World War II by the Americans explaining what happened during the War, in terms of insurance. I believe that the information in that document would rebut some of Mr. Vayer’s testimony concerning Generali’s participation in insurance during World War II. The document indicates that, Italy being part of the Axis, and Generali being an Italian insurance company, together with Reunione (RAS) that was mentioned by Mr. Wolf, the two Italian insurance companies, together with Allianz, in fact took over policies in the occupied policies in cooperation with each other, according to the Axis penetration document., which we would like to supplement the record with [available from the NAIC]. Also, at a further time supplement the record with additional information on the activities of those insurance companies during World War II. With respect to litigation, I would also like to state in rebuttal, briefly, that until the litigation was filed, Generali was doing nothing to pay off claims, to our knowledge, or to contact people, or to open its records. The purpose of the litigation is very simple. It is to require these various European insurance companies simply to disclose those policies that have not been paid on Jews and other persons who were the targets of persecution of the Axis during World War II and to pay those claims. Purely and simply which we understand to be and hope to be the aim of the NAIC and we thank you very much for having us and inviting us to be here.

Commissioner Koken. We obviously are searching hard and long to find out any information we can, and would welcome any information that you can provide to us that may provide and enhance our view of this area. Ms. Gerstel would you like to make a statement?

Commissioner Senn. Do you have a document here, Ms. Zack?

Ms. Zack. I don’t. I have it in my office and I can have it sent over.

Commissioner Senn. Great. Thanks.

Ms. Linda Gerstel. Simply to add to Joanne’s comments, and in light of the fact that you’re going to be preparing questions for Generali, after Generali’s presentation I think there are some very important questions that I’d like to share with you in your inquiry. It appears, based on Generali’s presentation, that they have paid claims in the West, but they have not paid any claims in Eastern Europe. According to Generali’s own advertisements in major newspapers here, it operated 14 subsidiaries throughout Eastern Europe. Many of the policies that have been shown to us by plaintiffs show on the face of the policy that the policy is backed by Generali Trieste. So Generali’s claim that if one would contact its 1-800 number that it would tell that claimant the successor company that would be responsible to pay that claim is nothing more than pointing the blame somewhere else when in fact by the own policy terms Generali was required, as a matter of contract, to stand behind the claim. In fact, people in Eastern Europe specifically sought out big companies outside of Eastern Europe because they felt that those companies would be able to back their insurance claims in a period of much turbulence.

Director Angoff. Let me just understand what you’re saying. You’re saying the contract itself said that the ultimate parent was responsible, regardless of who the sub was, the immediate seller?

Ms. Gerstel. It basically vouched the entire company’s assets in Generali Trieste. So the name of Generali is on the face of the policy. So I would share with you a document that would help with your questioning in that regard.

Commissioner Senn. Do you have any idea, now we’re going to ask Mr. Vayer, but do you have any information about the extent of these real estate assets in Eastern Europe.

Ms. Gerstel. We’re developing information. One of the things that you should probably take a look at before the New York conference is a recently filed claim out in California by the Stern family, which also seems to rebut some of the allegations that Mr. Vayer made that most of the assets of Generali were taken from it and Generali never received any compensation in return. I can make that complaint available to you. It seems to indicate that Generali in fact got approximately 8 million dollars from the Czechoslovakian state.

Commissioner Senn. Right, to compensate them for…we’re actually aware of those documents but you don’t know the extent, and obviously we’re going to ask Generali, is if there were limited real estate assets in the countries that had subsidiaries and that most of the assets were back in Italy. Do you have any information about the size or magnitude of the real estate assets? <No.> Okay.

Ms. Gerstel. One final thing is that I think Mr. Vayer will also have problems sharing with you a stipulation regarding what he described as an agreement to not destroy documents because that order was never entered into or given by the Court, there was never agreed-upon language.

Commissioner Senn. So there is no agreement between the parties.

Ms. Gerstel. Well we’re taking Mr. Vayer’s statement today as an agreement, but we don’t have it in writing that we’re aware of. We certainly hope that’s an accurate statement.

Mr. DeAngelo. That’s why I asked for a piece of paper.

Commissioner Senn. So there’s nothing in writing, just Mr. Vayer’s statement here today.

Ms. Gerstel. We asked for something in writing. There was never an agreement on language.

Commissioner Senn. But they made an oral representation to you that they wouldn’t destroy documents? They made that representation orally?

Ms. Gerstel. We were negotiating for language…<end of tape>…Commissioner Angoff left the presentation feeling that perhaps you were barking up the wrong tree. I think you’re not barking up the wrong tree. Generali made a presentation regarding instances in which it might have helped Jewish employees. The Commissioner from Kentucky rightly pointed out that there were Jewish employees of Generali, who when they presented their claims to Generali, were basically thrown out of Generali’s offices. So for every instance of help to a Jewish employee, there are many instances to rebut those instances.

Commissioner Koken. I think at this point what I’d like to do is take a 10-minute break and I would urge you to keep it to ten minutes. We do have a number of other people we’d like to hear from. I would also like to remind you at this time that if in fact you would like to present testimony we would welcome that and there are also questionnaires that can be completed and submitted to the Pennsylvania Insurance Department outside if you or if you know of someone who may have a potential claim, we would be happy to work with you on that. Thank you. Ten minutes, please.

Mr. Louis Hytowitz. …defense of any insurance policy or looking for any information from insurance companies. I wish to explain a particular situation which may differ from those which we have heard so far today. My name is Louis Hytowitz. I am a citizen of the United States. I was born here, and I am 76 years old, and I am the last remaining grandson of a family that perished in Poland and was murdered, of course, during World War II. These people were folks I never knew, except through my father, and he had occasion to write to them through the years. My dad came over here in 1912, and his family perished in 1941 or 1942. He is from a town in Poland called Stoltski (sp?). I took a little time to try to find out a little bit about this town and what happened there, and in so doing I went through some papers in a book that my father had left and I had only recently looked at because of all the noise that was going on with the Holocaust victims and their claims against the Swiss government and so forth. I even pursued the fact of writing to Ernst & Young who had the listings of people who may have had money in Swiss banks. My family’s name and its various spellings did not appear. Beyond that, I looked at a book that my father had, it was a memorial book that was printed in 1964 with the forward being edited by the gentleman who was the first President of Israel. He had come from the villages surrounding my father’s town. The town of Stoltski was on the border between Russia and Poland and it had various ownership through the period of time it existed – some 400 years. But this gentleman went on, apparently by getting witness reports, of what went on in Stoltski during the German Occupation. My grandfather, who had a business in Stoltski, and my father’s brother, who apparently was a partner with him, stayed through the entire period when there was disruption in the country. My grandfather was born around 1860 and apparently died around 1941 or ‘42. My father left Poland in 1912 when he was approximately 23-24 years old, because of the civil unrest that was going on in Poland at the time. His family could not understand why he had left, and they stayed there because they had physical assets. My question is, what happens to people like that, who had businesses, had property, no record of anything or anywhere, insurance or whatever it might be, are they all just forgotten about? We’re talking about, from what I look at in the newspapers about the Swiss accounts, is $70 or $700, or that the average person may have had $1,200. Has anyone given thought to asking these governments that are involved, not to pay individuals, but maybe to compensate of what might be an average of their known value, of what existed. I’m not talking about, I have an insurance policy and I’m looking for $10,000 or $5,000 or $200, but the net worth of what was taken, and give it perhaps to charities who are deserving so that they can help future generations learn and do the proper thing.

Commissioner Koken. Commissioner Senn actually would like to respond.

Mr. Hytowitz. Okay, and I’d like to read an account, not to be dramatic, but what has happened, or what did happen, to an uncle of mine, whom I did not know, it’s in print, it’s in this book, that was written by the first President of Israel. If I may – it’s not too lengthy, I’m just going to take it out of context here, it said "…Some Jews hid in caves and attics and cellars where they stayed for eight days without food or water. In some cases the choked weeping of a little child revealed the hiding place of the Jews to the murderers and they burst in like wild beasts and dragged them into the pit graves. When they burst into one of the bunkers, they found the seven-year old child of Dora Hanken." – this was all done by eyewitness information – "the boy fell at their feet and begged to be left alone. He was murdered in cold blood." Now this was my uncle. The spelling is completely different than the way we spell our name, and it’s different than the letter I have to my father showing the business address and it says Zimal Hytowitz. I spell it this way only because Ellis Island gave this spelling to my father. In this account the last name is spelled Hayyatovitch. And it says "Zimal Hayyatovitch and his wife were enfeebled after eight days of hiding without food and came out into the Ghetto. We took them to work with us in order to save them. When the foreman saw the children," - there were two daughters involved, they were hoping to be pharmacists, I’m sorry, - "when the foreman saw the children, he said cynically, I know that you hid yourselves, but I’m prepared to leave you alive because I disapprove of slaughtering the Jews. But the order is that no Jewish child is to be left alive so I must kill them. The children clung to their parents but in vain. With a cruelty that froze the blood, he took them and killed them before the eyes of their parents." Now this is an uncle that I had, and this is an eyewitness that somebody had reported to this gentleman who had written this up. Now I have this book at home, it’s as thick as two Sears & Roebucks’ catalogues. Ninety percent of it’s in Hebrew and I have no one who can help me explain any of it. Fortunately the forward, the beginning of it, was in English, and as you hear, the language is quite understandable. But that’s my question, in just memory of my parents, and grandparents, and uncles, whom I never knew, there should be something beyond insurance policies that we’re discussing today, and that’s the point I’m trying to make. I wish in closing, if I could tell you about this town for just a few seconds, if you’d like to hear about it. This is what I found. I visited Israel in 1982 on a vacation and I had the occasion to be at the University of Tel Aviv, I think it was, and they had a service there where they were doing printouts on the towns that you may question. Couldn’t tell you about people, but told you about the town. So, this is lengthy, but I brought it down into short language as to what this town of Stoltski was. Stoltski Poland was a border frontier village originally located in Russia and on the banks of the Narew river as it enters Poland. It had its origins in the late 16^th century and is noted in existing archives in Minsk, Russia, which is what this particular paper told me because their research had said that. During the period leading to World War I, half of the Jewish population left the town because of political unrest. That’s the time that my father left, in 1912, and I have evidence of his coming over at that date. After the War, the town was incorporated into Poland, that was in 1921, it was a border town with a Jewish population of 1,428 people. Again, I’m getting that from information that apparently was available. So 48% of the population was Jewish. It was cut off from markets by the anti-Semitic government, by the anti-Semitic Polish government, and organized Polish competition. Just a little bit more, if I might. The Soviet government ruled Stoltski from 1939 to 1941. All Jewish political activity was disbanded and in the Spring of 1941 the Jewish youth were mobilized into the Soviet Army. However, 3,000 Jews still remained with the outbreak of the War between Russia and Germany, World War II, on June 22, 1941. The advancing German army established Ghettos at the end of 1941. In 1942 they began the murder of hundreds of Jews. By 1942, the greater of the remaining population of the Jewish area was all murdered, and that was approximately 3,000 people at the time. I’m just doing this as I hope in the feeling for my grandparents and uncles and just wanted to express another view that hadn’t been expressed today. Something to think about. What about all these folks? They left their properties and homes and got nothing for it. Thank you very kindly, it’s been a pleasure talking to you and I hope you understand what I am talking about.

Commissioner Senn. I just wanted to try to answer your question. Obviously we are insurance commissioners and trying to protect claimants in our respective states.

Mr. Hytowitz. I understand this is completely different from that.

Commissioner Senn. Wait, let me finish my statement. It’s very interesting, because obviously in the course of doing this we’ve all learned a great deal, and I personally have been very shocked at the level at which claims other than insurance, property claims, businesses, have not been paid over these last 50 years, and in fact learned of a number of cases where, I’ve had survivors say, I can’t spend my entire life fighting with the Polish government, or the Czechoslovakian government, so there have been efforts made. We are in contact with the Jewish Material Claims Conference and of course the American Jewish Congress heads the Claims Conference that has a lot of organizations in it that do claims and I think that a lot of these issues are being opened again because of the Swiss banking issue, because of the opening of the archives, and because of the work that we’re doing with regard to insurance. So we hear what you’re saying, obviously it’s not in our jurisdiction but we’re not unaware of the problem and you’re absolutely right.

Mr. Hytowitz. Well I appreciate you listening and I appreciate your comments. Thank you.

Commissioner Koken. Next on our agenda we have Mr. Christopher Worthley from Allianz.

Commissioner Senn. Did we see you in Los Angeles, Mr. Worthley, was that the last time?

Mr. Christopher Worthley. Yes, in San Francisco. Commissioner Koken, Commissioner Senn, other Commissioners and colleagues, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for having us here today as well. Some of you, as Commissioner Senn said, have met with us before to talk about this. It’s nice to see some other people that we can talk to on this issue as well. I’d like to introduce myself. My name is Christopher Worthley, and I work at the Allianz AG head office in Munich, Germany, in issues related to claims on policies issued in the Holocaust period. I report directly to the Board of Management. With that in mind, I’d like to make one point in advance. I think we are all here today, and I do mean all of us, attempting to do the same thing. To find out what happened to insurance policies, assets that rightfully belonged to people, and what we can do about any wrongs that were done. And I think we all agree on that. I’d also like to say, on a personal note, that I’m here, speaking for a board of management, comprised of people who were either children at the time of the Second World War or were born afterwards, and if I didn’t believe that they were addressing this issue with the highest level of integrity, I wouldn’t be here today to testify to you, and I’d also like to make that point to the survivors who are here today. We owe them a great debt of thanks for coming forward. None of us who were born after the War can appreciate the horrors that were inflicted on people by the Nazi regime. We can hope to try to understand it, but we can’t really understand the pain that these people have been through, the injustice that was done to them, and it’s important that we at least try, that we ourselves are familiar with what happened, and the reason for that is so that we truly never do forget. I’m here today on behalf of the Allianz AG Board of Management, which is looking at these issues openly and honestly, and that’s the basis of what I’m going to talk to you about today, to give you a report on what we’ve done so far to address this issue and some of the claims that we’ve found that we have been able to settle so far. For any of you who have been at the hearings before in California, I’d like to apologize that some of the numbers may sound familiar. I’m updating as I can for others, and of course I’ll be available for questions. One of the most important points is that Allianz AG is committed to settling unpaid insurance claims without any delay. In part, because the elderly people who are approaching us, and others as well, can’t be kept waiting for the outcome of lengthy corporate hearings. These are elderly people, and it’s important that we go ahead as quickly and as expeditiously as possible. We have made progress over the past few months and I’d like to talk about that today. One of the background issues that some of you may be familiar with is that Allianz AG established what we call the Allianz Help line for Holocaust Inquiries in April 1997. The purpose of this was to enable people who thought they might have a claim, whether they had any documentation to back it up or not, to enable them to have a very easy, non-bureaucratic access to the company, and in case there is a claim, to file it directly in that way. We established telephone centers in North America, in Europe, in Israel. They’re open 24 hours a day and the staff is multi-lingual. They’re able to deal with languages other than German or English, Eastern European languages included. Let me go through some of the results we’ve seen from the help line so far, relatively slowly, and try to give some background explanation of the figures as well. We’ve received, first of all, since the last time I’ve spoken with some of you, there have been very few additional calls with cases that are being reviewed, so if the numbers seem familiar, that’s why, the numbers are accurate and that’s important. We’ve received phone calls, overall, from about 800 people to date in all three telephone centers, with requests on possibly 1900 policies, so multiple requests are coming from individual people. In over 1600 of these cases, we couldn’t establish a connection between the inquiry and any of the Allianz AG subsidiaries that are believed to have retained assets, or are alleged to have retained assets. There are four such Allianz subsidiaries mentioned in the lawsuit in New York City. So in 1600 of these cases we couldn’t establish any connection to any of these subsidiaries. In some cases where a caller did have more specific information, and many of these callers had very little or weren’t sure there was even an insurance policy, but were attempting to have us find out, and we still encourage to do that. In some of those cases they did have specific information on the companies involved, and if they were not part of an Allianz AG subsidiary we could refer them to the company that would have been or could have issued a policy at the time. We have been able to do that and we continue to do that. That left us with about 200 or so claims where we could establish a relationship with an Allianz AG subsidiary. Some of those are still being researched, but here is the status of those searched to date. In 31 of those cases we found that the policy had been previously paid out to a policyholder or to a beneficiary. This is in part because some people did flee Germany after the Nazis came to power in 1933, cashed in their policies, and left the countries. In some cases, the Nazi government made attempts to seize even those policies, but we’ll come back to the issue of seizure in a few moments. So 31 cases where we found that they were previously paid out. In 59 cases we found that the policies in question had been previously seized by the Nazi regime and had been included in Germany’s post-War restitution program which was established by the Allies in Germany and carried on to this day by the German government. Because the Nazi government had made every effort to seize all assets, not just insurance efforts, but including insurance assets, from Jewish people in Germany and others, the Federal Republic of Germany established in the late ‘40s, assumed the moral, legal, and financial responsibility for the policies it seized. This was in part negotiated with the State of Israel, and with the understanding of the World Jewish Congress. So some of these cases had been previously settled under these regulations, that were, again, we have to realize this, instituted by the Allied governments in Germany after the War. So a number are still being researched, but we have found some, based on the calls from the help line, where we could find evidence, based on the information given to us by the caller, that a policy probably did exist, with an Allianz AG subsidiary, and that no payment had been given by the German government as part of its restitution program. We have made that the standard by which we’re working. We’ve offered payment on all seven of these policies. Five of the people reside in Israel, two in the United States. Now these don’t sound like very many. This is an issue that comes up a lot. Part of it is, background assumption is that life insurance assets that were seized or the Nazis seized in Germany, that no one ever received payment on those. And we have to remember that the Federal Republic of Germany did include life insurance assets in its restitution policies, worked with the insurance companies throughout the ‘50s and ‘60s. The insurance companies were cooperating with the government at that time. So in these cases, these were people who had not received any restitution from the government and probably did have a policy, and that’s the standard from which we’re working. We will offer payment on those policies. Something else to remember, the Federal Government set a deadline of 1970 for filing claims for restitution. People approaching the government today could be faced with rejection, I can’t speak for the German government, I don’t know. But we have assumed that they probably would not be honored by the German government, and in these cases, we said we would offer payment on the policies. In cases where we could verify, based on the information we have, and it’s not always complete, but we could verify some insured, we could pay as would have normally been paid. In other cases, we’ve offered the average value if there was no indication or no information from other people, then we would offer the average value of life insurance policies of the period, which was, and this is also relevant to this discussion, substantially less than what we’re accustomed to today. The average value was between three and six thousand Reichsmarks, the former currency of Germany, which was devalued 10 to 1 by the Allies after the War. That’s why the policy sums that we’re discussing today for Germany are substantially less than what we would be accustomed to in the states. We have advertised the help line in the States. Many of you have included it in your web sites. We thank you for that. We would encourage you to keep doing that, because it’s important for people to know that there is an opportunity to go directly to the company and say, we believe there may have been something, and I personally always encourage people to do that even if they have no documentation. It’s not required to have an actual policy. People can provide the name of the person insured, with as much as possible, and there are difficulties in this, with the correct spelling from the period, a birthdate and a place of birth, if possible. That speeds up the search substantially. It can be done with a name alone, but it takes longer. We’re talking about extensive paper files that have never been computerized. The number that we’ve had in place here in North America is 800-411-0118. Again, that’s the Allianz help line for Holocaust inquiries. Let me stress another fact which is crucial to understanding our company’s position in all this, and that is though this issue has come up, in part, from discussions about Swiss banks and cash assets which were retained in Switzerland, there’s a very clear distinction between the insurers and the Swiss banks, and that is the insurers themselves did not retain assets after the War, in part through losses of property that Mr. Vayer pointed out with Generali, and not only in Eastern Europe but also in Eastern Germany, but also because the insurance industry was fundamentally bankrupt after the War. The German government came in, in order to prevent the industry from collapsing on all insurance claims, these aren’t just insurance claims from people who suffered from the Holocaust but all claims were filed with insurance companies. Once the insurance company was able to verify that the claim was correct, the German government put the money that was necessary for that into an account and it was paid to the claimant. So there was no retention of assets. The companies were essentially bankrupt. Over a period of years, this enabled the companies to restore themselves, to be able to conduct business, and prevented a collapse of the industry and enabled cases to be paid over a period of time. In the case of Eastern Europe, as Mr. Vayer pointed out, for Generali, and this would relate, as well, in the case of our Italian subsidiary, who’s name I also can’t pronounce but I will say RAS for simplicity. The issue is more complex because assets were seized by the Communist government or by the state-controlled insurance companies in Central and Eastern Europe after the War, we can appreciate that attorneys and others are finding new information on that. That is important, it’s important that we have as much information as possible. All of us - to know exactly what happened, what is correct, who are the correct addresses for filing claims today. Let me go on with the account of what Allianz AG is doing with this issue. From the very beginning, once it was clear that there was some concern about what the European insurers were doing, I believe there are 16 insurers mentioned altogether in the lawsuit in New York, Allianz AG realized that it was important to be able to verify the integrity of our files from the period. We asked Arthur Anderson, an auditing company, to come in, secure our files and examine our files. This is not our company auditor, this is an independent company from outside, it is also an American-based company. We’ve had a number of people from Allianz assisting them over the past months to examine the files and see what the trends are, what exactly happened, what can we say with the files that are retained today about what happened and what the standards are. The report that Arthur Anderson is preparing is to be released next month, by the end of March. We’ve also been in discussions on these issues with major Jewish organizations, most prominently among them the World Jewish Congress. The World Jewish Congress recently sent three internationally recognized representatives to our head office in Munich, of Allianz AG, to discuss the best way to find a just and timely settlement of these issues. The experts were Moshe Sanbar, Chairman of the Organization of Associations of Holocaust Survivors and formerly a prominent banker in Israel; and Neal Sher, formerly of the US Justice Department, and Dr. Karl Brozik, head of the German office of the World Jewish Claims Conference. The group met with Dr. Henning Schulte-Noelle, Chairman and CEO of Allianz AG; Herbert Hansmeyer, a member of the board of Allianz AG, and Dr. Gerhard Rupprecht, Chairman and CEO of Allianz Lebensversicherungs-AG, which is the life insurance subsidiary in Germany. The discussion focused on ways of expediting settlement of life insurance claims of victims of the Holocaust, victims of Nazi persecution and their heirs, without losing sight of the historical, moral and legal aspects of the issue. Both the World Jewish Congress and the company later expressed optimism that significant progress was being made towards solving these issues and answering the questions involved. There has been some concern, and I’ll bring this up at this point, about the issue of documentation. As I said, it’s not necessary, when calling our own help line, to have anything more than a name. All information that’s available helps, it makes the search much quicker, names, birthdates, places of birth are important. There has been some concern about the issue of seizure of assets and what the insurance companies did. There was an article recently in The Times about this, being a document of the Gestapo, Nazi Germany’s secret police, and I wanted to make the point today that these are not secret documents. They are in individual policy files. That particular document in question, was published by RAS, the Italian subsidiary, in 1988. This is not necessarily the only source for the document. I wouldn’t want to say that, but it is one of them, and it indicates that this is not a secret. The Italian subsidiary published this in a chapter that happened to be in the German-language edition of a book they published at the time. This is the document here, that appeared in The New York Times with an explanation of what this was about.

Commissioner Senn. This was the same person?

Mr. Worthley. Yes. Same person, same document. And this is the book that was published by the Allianz AG Italian subsidiary in 1988.

Commissioner Senn. That was a history of the company?

Mr. Worthley. Yes. It was a centennial book of the history of the company.

Commissioner Senn. Do you have the book in English?

Mr. Worthley. No. Just in German and Italian. But we can make copies and provide them for you.

Commissioner Senn. Could we get a copy of the book?

Mr. Worthley. Sure. German or Italian, whichever is easier.

Commissioner Senn. We’ll take it German.

Mr. Worthley. That’s fine. We can also provide both copies, but unfortunately the language is not English, I did ask about that.

Commissioner Senn. We’ll take it in both. So you’ll send it to Ellen Wilcox at the NAIC?

Mr. Worthley. Okay. But again, if anyone else would like a copy, please let us know, we can certainly get one to them. Nonetheless, documentation remains important. What we see with this document is individual policy files, there is an indication of the entire history of the policy. When the policy was opened – assuming the file is complete, I’ve seen files that are not – that also includes information on the seizure of the assets. The Nazi government was like any bureaucracy. They were very thorough in their seizures and in the documentation of their seizures. They provided notices saying that they are seizing this. I’ve also seen other letters from the Gestapo that have said to other government officials that have said, we have seized this policy, using a similar format, with the Allianz subsidiary. So those papers do exist, they’re not a secret, but they are part of individual policy files, there’s no central file of them anywhere, and the German government also does not have, to the best of our knowledge today, a separate record of the insurance clams that they paid through restitution. They can say a great deal about the geographic breakdown of restitution payments, they can say that they have paid more than 100 billion marks, or around 56 billion U.S. dollars since the restitution began in the late 40s, but they can’t say how much of it was for insurance. This is some information that we hope to get at some point from the German government. I also have some further information about background issues that I’ve provided to all of you, questions and answers about the issues. I have many other copies with me so if there are individuals who would like a copy of that, I’d be happy to give it to them afterwards if they’ll see me. It’s also important to note that we’re looking at a number of very large historical issues, not just regarding policy files and how they done, that’s part of a larger complex, what did Allianz AG do at the time of the Nazi Reich, how was the company doing business, under what conditions, and what was its role in the restitution process afterwards in terms of verifying which policies were eligible for payment based on the records that were not handed over to the Nazis. In order to look at these larger issues we invited Professor Gerald D. Feldman, from the University of California at Berkeley, who is the head of the Center for German and European Studies there, to come and have access to all of our historical files. There is a difference between historical files and individual policy files for reasons of privacy, to come into our Allianz Center for Corporate History, have access to the files, do research in other country’s files, German National Files, and prepare an independent account of what Allianz did at that time, what was its role in society, and in the business community, what was its role after the War in restitution. Professor Feldman is in Germany now. He’s already begun work with a team of historians there, and they have already been, or they’re looking into archives in Berlin, Moscow and Warsaw. They plan additional research in the United States, France, Austria, and the Czech Republic. It’s a big project, it’s going to take some time, but not as much time as one might think. Professor Feldman hopes to have his book on Allianz’s history of the time completed by 1998. In closing I’d like to assure all the commissioners here, and everyone in the room, that Allianz AG is committed to addressing this with integrity and doing what’s right, in any way we can. The management is fully committed to settling this issue and doing everything it can to do that today. We commend you on the work you’ve done to date, it’s very important, but also to the individual interests of people in your states are represented and looked at. But please be assured that we too are looking at this to seek justice and are working to serve that now. Thank you.

Commissioner Koken. Thank you very much, we’d like to entertain questions now.

Commissioner Senn. I have some questions. Mr. Worthley, do you have a copy of your statement that you can give the committee?

Mr. Worthley. I actually gave it to you in advance.

Commissioner Senn. Let me ask you – what is your position within the company?

Mr. Worthley. I work in the department for corporate communications which reports directly to the Chairman of the Board.

Commissioner Senn. And that is for Allianz, the parent? <right> Where are your offices located?

Mr. Worthley. In Munich, Germany.

Commissioner Senn. Do you have an office here in this country?

Mr. Worthley. Allianz AG doesn’t have an office, there are subsidiaries in the states – subsidiary companies in the states. Fireman’s Fund, for example.

Commissioner Senn. So where do we reach you?

Mr. Worthley. In Munich. I’m in the states for about two weeks now, but I can be reached in Munich.

Commissioner Senn. Are you an attorney?

Mr. Worthley. No.

Commissioner Senn. You’re a public affairs type person. How long have you been working for Allianz now?

Mr. Worthley. Two years now.

Commissioner Senn. Now Mr. Hansmeyer met with us in January and we posed the question to him whether or not Allianz would be agreeable to having examiners come to its corporate headquarters and to examine its books and records. We haven’t had an answer from Allianz, and at the time we thought the question was clear, so there had been no discussion about putting it in writing, but we’ll be happy to do that. However, do you have an answer for us. Mr. Hansmeyer understood the question, I think.

Mr. Worthley. Sure, I have some more information on that and you don’t necessarily need to put it in writing. I have spoken with Mr. Hansmeyer about that. Our understanding is that the insurance regulators in Germany, the DAV, has also begun to address the issue, they’ve seen a concern also internationally. Dr. Müller was preparing to invite the working committee to come and discuss the issues involved in this. It’s obviously of interest to the German equivalent of the commissioners as well, and as part of that, they are addressing the issue of whether individual companies, or at least one, would be willing to open up their archives for further discussion on that. But we’ve said in principle, yes we would. So that’s continuing.

Commissioner Senn. So let me get this straight. Mr. Müller is your head regulator, and he is going to invite this committee –

Mr. Worthley. That’s our understanding of it, yes, that he would give a written invitation, I think he may have done so orally to some members but I’m not sure. Unfortunately I can’t speak on his behalf.

Commissioner Senn. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody? Anybody on the committee been invited? No? Okay. We haven’t heard anything, and it is to send a delegation to examine the books and records of Allianz.

Mr. Worthley. He wasn’t focusing on Allianz. He was more issued in the global issue of what the history of insurance policies in Germany, obviously coming at it from the angle of a German insurance regulator, and the idea, as far as I understand it, now I can’t speak for him, I can only speak for my understanding of what his idea was, to have the insurance commissioners come over, discuss the background, and to intensify the discussions with access to the files of one of the insurers. We simply said that if he asked us, we would be willing to have our files open for that.

Commissioner Senn. So we should expect an invitation from Dr. Müller?

Mr. Worthley. That is my understanding. I can try and find out some more.

Commissioner Koken. Do you have an address that we could write to him? Could you provide us with that?

Mr. Worthley. I don’t have it with me. I can get you one.

Commissioner Senn. Kevin Cronin can probably provide that for us.

Commissioner Koken. Other questions? Director Angoff?

Director Angoff. First, a very effective, professional and non-defensive presentation. I’m sure the committee appreciates it. Also we appreciate Mr. Hansmeyer’s frankness in acknowledging the collaboration of Allianz with the Nazis during the War. We understand that he wasn’t born then, or was a little kid then, obviously we understand that you weren’t born then. Please be assured that we’re all aware of that. Do you know how Allianz categorized its policies during the War? For example, did Allianz have records of those policies that were held by Jews?

Mr. Worthley. There’s no separate file according to that. The registers are simply alphabetical by name. So there’s no separate file for Jewish policies.

Director Angoff. Is there any other manner in which policies were categorized, for example, Generali said they were categorized by country and by sub-district or region of the country?

Mr. Worthley. It’s possible with individual subsidiaries, I’m not sure, though, for example, in the case of RAS, how they would categorize. I can probably find that out for you just by talking to them. But with Allianz Leben, for that company in Germany, it was just an alphabetical list.

Director Angoff. So there was a difference, then, in the manner in which various subsidiaries of Allianz categorized their policies, kept records?

Mr. Worthley. Possibly. I don’t know, I’d have to find out. I’ve really only seen the Allianz Leben files to date. I couldn’t rule it out, that’s why I don’t want to say no. But I can find out.

Director Angoff. But you can rule out the possibility that any subsidiary of Allianz kept records in such a way that they could easily identify which policies were held by Jews?

Mr. Worthley. No, I can only do that for Allianz Leben in Germany. The insurance company in Austria probably would have had similar procedures to the insurance company in Germany. In Italy, I’m not sure. These are the companies that are the four that are involved in the lawsuit, the subsidiaries of Allianz AG in Italy, Austria or in Germany. Presumably the German-speaking countries would have had similar filing procedures but I can’t say that with certainty so I wouldn’t want to say anymore for now. But in Germany it was very clearly just all mixed together. Millions of paper files, and it’s still that way now. There is no computer index.

Commissioner Senn. Do you know which of the files are in the Moscow archives.

Mr. Worthley. No. Professor Feldman has been in Moscow recently. The files that are in Moscow are Nazi government files that were seized by the Russian Army occupying forces in Germany. As I understand it, there were no surprises in the research of the files in Moscow.

Commissioner Senn. There were no surprises, meaning…they didn’t find anything?

Mr. Worthley.