Commissioner Deborah Senn. <start of tape> … [This is the meeting of the Holocaust Insurance Issues Working Group of the] …Special Insurance Issues (E) Committee and I’ll ask Ellen [Wilcox, NAIC/SSO] to call the roll.

Ms. Ellen Wilcox. Washington. <Here> Arkansas. <Here> California. <Here> Colorado. <Here> Florida. <Here> Georgia. <Here> Illinois. <Here> Kansas. <Here> Louisiana. <Here> Maryland. Missouri. <Here> New Jersey. <Here> Nevada. <Here> New Mexico. <Here> New York. Ohio. <Here> Oregon. <Here> Pennsylvania. <Here> South Carolina. <Here> We have a quorum.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you. You have the agendas in front of you and what we’ve done is the first portion of the hearing will be devoted to giving an opportunity for survivors in the State of Washington to testify. This of course is similar to what we did in Washington, D.C. It’s similar to what the working group did in Florida and in Skokie, [near] Chicago, Illinois. We’ve also, and I’ll discuss this after the survivors have a chance to talk, we also have a hearing scheduled after the first of the year in Los Angeles. That’s assuming the working group continues, and we’ll talk about that. We’ve also had a request for one [hearing] in Pennsylvania. We are trying to accommodate any state that asks that there be a public meeting or interim meeting. Second of all, and that should be about the first hour, and then we’re going to devote our attention, the second hour, to our charge to [present] a draft report, which we distributed to the members of the working group, so that we have a report, because we were supposed to report to the E Committee at this session, about what we have done and where we go next. We have a number of ideas about where we want to go next and so we will discuss that. So, with that, so I will not delay at all, we will begin, and I will just say, we have a number of letters to be read into the record, which I’ll do from time to time. I will just say that the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, Dr. Israel Miller, has been a participant in a number of the hearings, could not come today, and has sent a letter saying, that "Although we cannot attend the Dec. 8, 1997 working group meeting in Seattle, we want to express our appreciation and support to the National Association of Insurance Commissioners in the efforts to recover insurance benefits owed to Holocaust survivors and heirs since the end of World War II." It talks about the history of the Claims Conference and says, "Once again, our purpose in writing today is to put the Claims Conference on the record in support of the goals of the working group to reiterate the importance of what you are doing and to pledge assistance as it might be needed." So, with that, I would first call up the first person to come testify, and that would be Mr. Henry Friedman, president of Surviving Generations of the Holocaust. Henry, welcome.

Mr. Henry Friedman. Good afternoon, Commissioner, and distinguished panel. I would like to thank you for inviting me to share my thoughts with you in the investigation against wartime insurance companies. I’m grateful to our insurance commissioner, Deborah Senn, for taking on the leadership role in this important investigation. I also am pleased that you have invited Holocaust survivors from our state, and some second-generation [descendants of Holocaust survivors] to discuss this important and complex matter. Many have questioned why this issue has arisen after 50 years. I believe it is the result of the Holocaust survivor generation reaching the end of its life in the most profound tragedy of the 20^th century, before we pass into the 21^st century. We need to look at this, collectively, as a great opportunity to candidly and meticulously examine the Holocaust, to learn vital lessons, and to provide justice for those who suffered most during the dark and tragic era. What should be seen as the most important to all countries and individuals involved in this matter is not only what truths you uncover, but how you act upon these truths. So justice will prevail while the victims are still alive and how you set upon them. As you go through this important investigation, I believe that there is two pillars upon which your efforts must rest. The challenge of the search for the truth, and the challenge of providing justice for the victims. I would share with you, briefly, my personal frustrations. I will submit a letter that I received from the Allianz insurance company, dated Sept. 11, 1997, and read to you just one sentence. "The archives contain no, or only a few, documents referring to the years prior to 1945. The same applies to database." End of quote. If my father were alive today, he could name the insurance company. I know that we had insurance, because I remember, before the War, we had a bad hailstorm that destroyed some of our wheat, and for which we took a loss, but my father said, "This will never happen to us again, because we have insurance." I’m also submitting letters from my younger brother, David, who survived the War with me. The two of us are the only survivors of the Holocaust from the entire family. David today is also an attorney. He wrote to the Ukraine Embassy [in] Washington, D.C., in 1994, about our property in the Ukraine. He never received a reply. Also I’m submitting letters from our respective senators, Slade Gordon and Patty Murray, and my Congressperson Jennifer Dunn, written on our behalf. In conclusion, I know that the matters which you face today are difficult and emotional for all of us, as they concern a period of horrible catastrophe [for] which no country had a perfect record. The issue is about setting the record straight, about finding the truth and about providing justice for the victims of this difficult era. Thank you very much.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much, Mr. Friedman. I just want to say that I thank you for saying thank you to me. I’m on the home turf here so people will say something to me, but I just want to recognize that there are an unprecedented number of states on this group who are working very hard. I just want to enjoin and say that there are many, many states involved in this and expressing concern.

Mr. Friedman. And I thank you – on behalf of Holocaust survivors, I thank you all who have taken the time of being with us here today. Thank you.

Commissioner Senn. All right, next on the list, I’m just going to introduce and recall for the working group Mr. Tibor Breuer. Tibor, are you here? If you’ll just stand up. Tibor testified in Washington, D.C. He’s from the state of Washington, as you recall. His family held policies from Generali, they have worked for many years to try to get their claims paid. They have a great deal of documentation and you heard his story in Washington, D.C. Now let me ask Ms. Kate Lesser to come forward, and actually I’m going to ask Jessica Lisovsky and Ms. Frances Maye, so everybody can just sit up as a panel. There’s been a delay, so I’m going to ask Mr. David Ferszt to come up as well. Go ahead and be seated, and then you’ll each take a turn. <I think Frances is downstairs.> Okay, well that’s all right. And is David Ferszt here yet? And if not, I’ll ask you to go forward, Ms. Lesser. Welcome, and thank you.

Ms. Kate Lesser. My name is Kate Lesser. I was born in Berlin. I know that my father had life insurance in Switzerland. My mother told me about it, and when this thing came up with Switzerland I wrote to the Swiss insurance companies and asked them if they knew anything about this. By that time they had formed the Consortium and they wrote back to me and said they’ve never heard of my father. I gave a copy of that to Deborah Senn. I think that has been the experience of many, many people. They denied any knowledge of that insurance, that life insurance.

Commissioner Senn. Did you give us a copy of the letter?

Ms. Lesser. Yes, I did. I gave you a copy of the letter.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much. This is Jessica Lisovsky. Welcome.

Ms. Jessica Lisovsky. I’m actually the granddaughter of a victim, and I don’t have personal knowledge of a policy per se, I just have a very strong feeling because of two things. He worked for an insurance company, he was the general manager of the Phoenix branch in Prague for many years, and also because of his position as Consular General of Austria for Arts and Culture. He was an art collector, and I actually have the photographs of part of his art collection. So given the fact that he was the director of an insurance company and that he had an extensive art collection, I feel very sure that he did have insurance.

Commissioner Senn. What country was this?

Ms. Lisovsky. Czechoslovakia.

Commissioner Senn. And have you ever put in a claim for the art?

Ms. Lisovsky. No, I did contact Allianz when this first came up this summer, and they said we need a birthdate of your grandfather. I didn’t have a birthdate. So I made some inquiries and I have not been able to find a birthdate for him, and they have kind of stopped their efforts until I can find a birthdate. So I’m sort of at a stalemate with them. But when I heard that the state was going ahead with some action, that’s when I got involved.

Commissioner Senn. Great. Thank you. Any other questions? Thank you very much. David Ferszt. Not here. Gerda Haas.

Ms. Gerda Haas. Hi. My name is Gerda Haas. <Please hold that [microphone] a little closer to you?> My name is – better? <You can bend it.> My name is Gerda Haas, and I also was born in Berlin in 1938. I took off with my husband and our three-month old baby and we went around through Europe until we came to be illegal in every country, and finally came to Paris and were told we were either going to be sent back to Germany or go on the boat to Shanghai. So of course we did go on the boat to Shanghai and spent the War years there. So in 1947 we came to America. My father had a butcher shop, not only retail but wholesale butcher. He delivered to orphanages and hospitals and old-age homes and we had a big business. So I know that it was custom that you had at first life insurance and second business insurance. So I found out that a cousin of my mother who also died in Auschwitz, by the name of Heinrich Stahl (sp?) was president of the Victoria company in Berlin, and if there was insurance, of which I am sure, it should have been, I don’t know if there are records of the Victoria company, and I understand that the Allianz took over the Victoria company, so I would think if you could search in papers, maybe we find the name in there. When I got married the first question was, my father said, you’re husband take out life insurance? I said of course, I mean, we all did that to begin with, besides the business. And he also had two apartment houses, and I know that he took out insurance for something. He wouldn’t be without but I have no proof.

Commissioner Senn. Have you tried to contact Victoria or Allianz?

Ms. Haas. No, I read in the paper that they didn’t exist anymore, so I was think that if you could help me with an address, I’d be happy to write and do something.

Commissioner Senn. Okay. And we’ll do that. Thank you, very much Mrs. Haas. Mr. Kurt Nussbaum.

Mr. Curt Nussbaum. My name is Kurt Nussbaum. I’m a survivor of the concentration camp Sonnenburg. My brother Hans, who would have loved to be here today, is unfortunately recovering from surgery in Swedish hospital. He’s a survivor of Buchenwald. Our parents and twelve of our closest relatives, our aunts and uncles and cousins, they are victims of the Holocaust. I was asked to testify on my experience with German authorities. They have been very, very dismal. If I go into details, I could tell you and continue for another two hours. But let me explain to you what I know about the insurance of our family. My father, who was a businessman from 1910 till he was deported in 1939 in Ellrich-am-Harz in the Eastern zone of Germany. He had insurance with a company that was called Elberfeld Barmen. Elberfeld Barmen is a city in Western Germany in the Rhineland, supposedly. It is connected by the first monorail that was constructed, that’s why the double name of Elberfeld Barmen. I don’t know the details of the insurance company. I assume that it was a life insurance company because health insurance in Germany at the time that we grew up was restricted to employees, basically. It was automatic insurance and obligatory insurance. There’s another facet that you have to know. When we grew up in Germany, 60 years ago, unless, like in our 1990 America, we discuss everything with our children, our children probably know more about our financial affairs than we would know, our parents did not discuss everything. They did not discuss anything. I had a grandfather who was a director of a telephone factory that was in 18 different capitals of Germany, it was the successor to the Inland Berlina (sp?) company. That was the one that invented the gramophone, the big phone that you have seen before. My grandfather had a saying, when you asked him about anything financial, he said "I will undress only when I go to bed." Since you mentioned the Conference of Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, I have a letter, a copy of which I give to you, because the reference to Dr. Israel Miller. I have five letters addressed to the Organization over the last two years, because they have sued us in court. We are the legal heirs to the Nussbaums. They have nothing, but they have sued not the German government, but us. And they have not answered our claims that we are the legal heirs at all. The court has twice decided against them. I have now tried to prevent that they are going to ruin the third case of ours.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much, Mr. Nussbaum. Ms. Fanny Matalon. Welcome.

Ms. Fanny Matalon. Thank you. My name is Fanny Matalon, I am born in Thessalonika, Greece. I didn’t want to come because it’s too emotional to speak in front of so many people. My father had an insurance with the Victoria of Berlin, and I did find the paper, and I mailed that to Berlin a few years ago, and they told me that my father had withdrawn all the money so there was no money left there for life insurance. He did have a store and there was insurance there too, I don’t know what, and we had insurance for the house. That’s all I can tell, I didn’t find any papers except for the Victoria Berlin.

Commissioner Senn. Who did you contact?

Ms. Matalon. Well, I send, there was an address on the paper that I found, and I did mail a letter to them with the paper and they said that my father had withdrawn the money in the late ‘30s.

Commissioner Senn. And they had those records?

Ms. Matalon. That’s what they said, yes.

Commissioner Senn. And did they show you a signature or anything?

Ms. Matalon. No. Nothing. Just that the money was withdrawn.

Commissioner Senn. I see. Thank you very much. Are there any other questions? Thank you. Mr. Fred Roer – did I say that right? Welcome.

Mr. Fred Roer. Afternoon. My name is Fred Roer. I was born in Germany near Cologne in a little town in which, on my mother’s side, the family lived for generations and generations, as far back as my great-great-great-grandfather. I can go there and we had a business there. When my parents got married, my dad lived about ten miles away from there and when my parents got married he moved to a little town and opened a second business. My grandfather, the father of my dad, started a business around 1880 in a little town near Cologne also. The town was named Gluh (sp?) and there was a business of plumbing, electricity and heating, and outside of that we had, I would call it more or less an appliance store in each town. Before Hitler we employed quite a few German men, and afterwards the business went down a little, but we still had it open until 1938 when all Jewish businesses had to be closed. My dad was killed in an accident in 1928 and I know for sure that, I was a young boy, I was 7 years old at that time, but there was quite a big insurance payment made to my mother when my dad was killed. When my dad was killed my grandfather kept both businesses going and with the intention of saving it for my brother who was five years older than me, and myself to take over when we were big enough, old enough [to do so]. My brother completed his apprenticeship in the other company and then came into the business and kept the business open. I know for certain he had life insurance. I’m not certain about my mother but I would suspect, because she was the sole supplier for my brother and myself, that she would have had an insurance too, because after my dad’s death she was very involved in the business. We were, my brother and my mother and myself, in 1941 we were deported. After ten days I was separated from them and I never seen them again. I was in several camps from October ’41 until May ’45 when we were liberated by the American Army. I went back to the little town where we used to live, if somebody would have been alive it would be there, I would meet them there, but like I said nobody was there. About five years ago, my wife and myself we took a trip to Israel and I went through the archives at Yad Vashem which is Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem, and there I found for the first time the certainty that my brother was killed. There was a file book which the Nazis kept, which the SS kept in the camps, and in that there was my brother’s name with his birthdate and his date of death. It was less than two months before the end of the War. Anyhow I am quite sure he had an insurance, because he was in the business and the business had to be closed, like I mentioned before, at the end of ’38. I contacted the Allianz insurance in Germany and I got a letter, the first letter I got a response on Sept. 22, and they said there’s no record of my brother having insurance, but the insurance which I’m not sure about, I have a little remembering that it would be Magdeburg Insurance, but I am not sure about, but they said the Allianz did not own, the Magdeburg Insurance did not belong to the Allianz. This letter, the first letter from the 22^nd of September, told me that they received my request. On the 29^th of September I got already the answer that my brother’s name wasn’t there. Within a week they decided that there was no insurance there. And they told me that they had forwarded [my letter] to the Union of German Insurance Companies, but I never heard anything from them up till now. I don’t know, I appreciate all the efforts you are making, but I am very pessimistic about any results. I read in the paper a few days ago about the Commission in London where they were discussing the gold for distribution in the Swiss banks, and the Swiss representatives said that now that there are other countries involved, like the neutral countries like Spain and Portugal, his comment was, well, we’re not alone. My opinion on this is if one criminal does something, you don’t have to be happy that the next criminal is involved too. And I feel the same way about the insurance deal. Because as far as I have experienced, the retribution from Germany, you are just going to be put from one office to another, from one organization to another, from one committee to another, and the end there’s nothing that you get. Thank you for listening to me. It’s my opinion, and I hope I expressed myself.

Commissioner Senn. You did very well. Thank you so much. Frances Maye? Has Frances arrived? Not yet. We’ll wait. And also, David Ferszt? Not here. I have some folks who signed up, so I’ll call on them. Robert Raives? Oh, these are the insurers? Okay. What about…we do have some insurers who…okay. I guess we have a representative of an insurer who we’ll call on in just a minute. We do want to go to the survivors first. Okay, here is, let’s see, Sokolov Aleksy, did I say that right? Come on up. Can anyone here translate from Russian? <inaudible conversation> Where did your uncles live in the U.S., your uncles live here? We’ll take that information, because…that’s correct. Because some of the issue is whether or not people were able to continue paying, and what the status of the policy paid till then…yes…so we will…give that information to us and we will act on that. Thank you. Go ahead.

[The following is a translation. The speaker is Mr. Aleksy Sokolov with Anne Birulin acting as a Russian translator.]

Mr. Aleksy Sokolov. My name is Aleksy Sokolov. I’m from Belarussia, from Minsk. I was not prepared to speak, but whatever I tell you will be from Minsk Ghetto. The War started in June 1941. The Ghetto was organized in 10 days. It was the biggest Ghetto in the Soviet Union. The first pogrom was the first of November 1941. The second pogrom was the 20^th of November 1941. In the third pogrom 12 members of my family were killed. In that amount was me too. The bullet went through my neck there and it came out. At night time I got out of the hole where the victims fell in. I was still a young boy and I went back to the Ghetto. I had to change my name. You know how we were treated by the Soviet Union. In 1993 I came to America. I immediately sent into the Claims Conference. I have papers. I have documents that I got from the Jewish Committee in Minsk. I have correspondence with them, since Minsk, since 1993. When the Germans were killing, they did not give any documents. With the Germans, I had to hide who I am. In the Soviet Union I had to hide, and change names, whatever, in order to get an education. There was a conference where I went and talked to Ella Rosenskaya (sp?). I don’t even want to talk about it.

Commissioner Senn. Would you ask him if he has any particular insurance?

Mr. Sokolov. Nothing. I have some papers in New York at the Claims Conference. In New York they don’t even want to answer me.

Commissioner Senn. Please tell him that we have to deal with particular insurance claims now, but we will talk to him after the hearing and try to help him. Please tell him I will personally help if possible.

Mr. Sokolov. I just wanted to tell you that not very many people know what went on there.

Commissioner Senn. Please tell him that I went to Minsk this last summer and I saw the site of the Minsk Ghetto, and he is correct. That many people do not know what happened there. We will speak to him afterwards and see if we can help him. Thank you very much.

[End of translated portion.]

Mr. Martin Birn. Thank you very much for having us here. My name is Martin Birn, B-I-R-N. The reason I spell it is because it is an unusual name, it is a German name but it is unusual, not only in the United States but I think there are 75, I’ve found a web page with 75 names like that on it. It’s also an unusual German name. So it should not be too difficult to trace in a database. My father was a businessman. My mother died when I was young, so he was a widower and I was the only child. And like all parents, I’m sure he had life insurance on his life, so that if something happened to him that I would be taken care of. Of course, the last time I saw him was at the train platform in 1940 in Stuttgart, and we did not talk about insurance claims or insurance companies or policies or anything. But I’m sure it does exist, and I appreciate [your efforts] and I’m sure it would not be too difficult to find a name like mine. I appreciate the effort being done by all the good insurance commissioners to get to the bottom of this. Thank you.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much, Mr. Birn. Thank you. Anne Birulin. Welcome back.

Ms. Anne Birulin. My name is Anne Birulin. When I was single, that is, my maiden name was Anne Neiss. I was born in Russialitsa (sp?) Poland, that is not too far from Shivitz, which of course doesn’t mean anything to anyone here. My father had a farm, he had land and livestock and I was 14 when I was already in the camp, so I cannot remember or know whether he had insurance or not. But my cousin, who’s 82, he was here exactly two weeks ago, and we were talking about it, and he remembers that everyone that had land and livestock had to have insurance. I would not know. The only thing that I know is that they sent money to Switzerland for my nadan, and nadan means a dowry. And so there was [an account], and I know my uncle, who had three daughters, he also was sending money to Switzerland. I would not know anything about it, I did not do anything about it, until my cousin was here and we discussed it. That’s about all I can tell you.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much. Have you filled out our questionnaire?

Ms. Birulin. I did not.

Commissioner Senn. Okay. Afterwards we’ll see you and have you fill one out. Okay, great. Thank you. And thank you for your translation duties as well. Is Eberhard Bruell here? Did you want to testify? <inaudible> Pardon? Okay. So we have Ilona Gergely as a maybe – I’m going to call on the maybes and see if there’s anybody else. No, come on up, it’s not too intimidating, I hope.

Ms. Ilona Gergely. My name is Ilona Gergely. My father was forced to change his name, it’s actually Rosenberg, which would be very useful here. The Hungarianized name is still recognized in Hungary as Jewish. It was a way to identify them that they were still Jewish, over there. My parents were both, were forced to march from Hungary to Germany and they were on their way to concentration camps. My mother was 18 and my father was 22 at the time. It was very usual for them to have insurance. In those days everybody had insurance. They had tried to put in a claim in New York and were denied, saying that they didn’t spend enough time being in forced march from Hungary to Germany. My mother was in for a year, my father for two years before the liberators came in. So they were denied a claim because they never got to a concentration camp. They were liberated before.

Commissioner Senn. This was actually a reparations claim, is that correct?

Ms. Gergely. Correct, yes.

Commissioner Senn. Were there any insurance policies that you were aware of?

Ms. Gergely. Not that I’m aware of. But I bet they would remember. They’re not in town right now, they’re in Hungary right now visiting relatives. Otherwise they would be here.

Commissioner Senn. Your mother was 18 at the time? Were they married?

Ms. Gergely. She was 18 at the time she was forced to go from Hungary to Germany.

Commissioner Senn. Okay. Please fill out our form because we can help you start to put the pieces together and answer some of the questions.

Ms. Gergely. Yes. Thank you. I just wanted to speak for them.

Commissioner Senn. That’s fine. Thank you very much for doing so. And let’s see, Frances Maye. Has Mrs. Maye arrived? She’s in the parking garage? Well when she gets here we’ll put her on. Is there anybody else, amongst survivors? Yes, sir. Why don’t you state your name, and if we missed it, we apologize.

Mr. Paul Muschevski. But of course. Thank you for inviting us. My name is Paul Muschevski, and I of course, I was born in Poland. <…end of tape…> … number one, going back to the family circle, we went to the Ghetto in 1942, I went into hiding with my family. About insurance coverages or policies I couldn’t tell you, because I was only 11. My father was in business, and as I said I cannot remember seeing anything and I cannot give you any documentation, because we had moved into the Ghetto and we couldn’t find anything. Everything was lost. So I hope I’ll get some answers, somehow, today. Thank you.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you. And in answer to your question, I’ll try. We’re going to be talking later on in the meeting about putting together a method to research claims such as yours. For some of the people who don’t have paperwork or who don’t have a policy, finding a way to research a claim and look at the records of a company and determine whether or not there was insurance. Interestingly, at the hearing in Skokie, we heard about certain inventories of possessions that were confiscated that yielded information. So there’s a lot of different sources that we’re going to look at. So we’re in the process, it’s certainly going to be difficult, but we’re going to do the best we can to try to answer some of these questions. And so at this point I wouldn’t give up hope. I just say that it will be difficult. Thank you very much. Do we have any other survivors who…yes, please come forward. Tell us your name for the record.

Ms. Cecilia Etkin. My name is Cecilia Etkin. I am a survivor. I was in seven concentration camps. I was the only one who came back. My parents were killed the same night they arrived there. Sisters, brothers, children, everyone was killed. I’m the only one who came back. I was born in Siga, Russia, at that time Romania, Hungary. Originally Romania. My father had a tailor business. We had 7 or 8 workers. My parents had 11 children. Some of us worked in the shop with my father. I don’t know anything, I don’t have any documentation of insurance. But my parents, they had 7 daughters, and I’m sure that my father had insurance but I don’t have any documentation. And I don’t know how to go about it.

Commissioner Senn. We’ll ask you to fill out our information form so we can put you in our active file. Let me ask you this question. Over the years have you tried to make any claims, property claims with the Romanian government, the Hungarian government?

Ms. Etkin. No. No attempts.

Commissioner Senn. Okay. We’ll ask you for some information and we’ll try to assist you as well as we can. Thank you very much for coming. Any other survivors? Yes. Please come forward.

Ms. Moli Sneiders. I just want to thank you for the effort, which is tremendous. I’m also like the ones who left Germany. I was born in Western Germany in 1938, two days before Kristallnacht. I went to Palestine with the Youth Alemagne through Hadassah. My parents and my younger sister were still in Germany and during Kristallnacht they lost everything they owned, the business they had, their home, and my younger sister is still suffering from sleeplessness from this, yes? But I can’t prove anything. I don’t know about insurance. We never talked about it. My parents, they never talked about it. But I do think that they are entitled, at least my younger sister are entitled to something, to get back. Thank you.

Commissioner Senn. Tell me again where in Germany this was?

Ms. Sneiders. Dresden. Dresden Saxony. They had a business there. They had a tailoring business. My father was a tailor, my mother was a seamstress.

Commissioner Senn. And the business was completely destroyed?

Ms. Sneiders. Completely destroyed on Kristallnacht. Yes. Thank you.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much. Be sure to fill out a questionnaire so we can contact you again. Thank you. All right. Unless there are any other survivors, and when Mrs. Maye comes we’ll put her in, we now have a statement to be entered into the record for Generali, which is the Italian company, and I’ll read it quickly.

STATEMENT FOR GENERALI TO BE ENTERED INTO THE RECORD AT NAIC HEARING IN SEATTLE

The treatment of insurance claims of Holocaust victims and their families is an issue of great concern to Assicurazioni Generali. We welcome the opportunity to share information with you regarding this matter. We would appreciate your making this statement and the more detailed letter we have sent you a part of the record of the meeting on December 8, 1997 of the National Association of Insurance Commissioners’ Working Group on Holocaust/Insurance Claims to be held in Seattle.

You have expressed interest in claims emanating from Central and Eastern European countries where holdings may have been nationalized after the war. Indeed, during and after the war, Generali faced expropriations of its properties and the properties of its insured. The cold-war communist regimes in Eastern Europe nationalized and expropriated all major businesses seizing Generali’s insurance assets there, including its offices, as well as 184 buildings and 14 companies controlled by Generali.

Historically, Generali has referred persons inquiring about the policies issued by its former offices and agencies in Central and Eastern Europe to the various state-owned organizations which took over its insurance business in the respective communist-bloc Countries. Unfortunately, the communist regimes were no more responsive to policyholders and their beneficiaries than they have been to Generali. Although Generali made efforts over the years to get an accurate accounting and compensation for Generali properties seized in Central and Eastern Europe, we were largely unsuccessful.

Generali is sensitive to the suffering of the victims of the Holocaust. This past June, Generali announced its decision to establish a fund of $12 million, to be administered by an independent committee in Israel, in honor of Generali policyholders who perished in the Holocaust.

Fund monies will be given to organizations and public bodies dedicated to the eternalization of the memory of the Holocaust to the assistance of Holocaust victims and their families through the provision of medical, psychological and other assistance, and may be applied by the independent committee for discretionary payments to those who held Generali policies issued before World War II in Eastern and Central Europe or their loved ones who survived them.

In addition, a Policy Information Center has been established to help families of Holocaust victims find information about Generali policies which may have been issued to their loved ones during the pre-War era. Generali is in the process of computerizing information it has regarding policies held during the War. Specialists at the Policy Information Center work with individuals to process their requests for information. Generali will soon be able to conduct computerized searches of Generali’s archives in Trieste to locate policy documents which will be forwarded to the requesting families.

Persons who would like to request an archive search on behalf of a relative who was insured by Generali in Central or Eastern Europe prior to or during World War II, may call the Policy Information Center at 1-800-456-8174 or write to it at Suite 2000, 45 Rockefeller Plaza, New York, NY 10111-0100.

Data from the archives will also be provided to Yad Vashem in Jerusalem to support its ongoing efforts to compile the names of all Holocaust victims.

Generali is hopeful that the foregoing details are helpful to you in addressing this most important matter of mutual concern. We at Generali know we cannot end the continued suffering of Holocaust victims; we cannot remedy the inequities of the now extinct communist regimes; and we cannot rectify the historical acts of unjust foreign states. But, through our charitable endowment and our sharing of documents from the pre-War years, we have tried to make meaningful contributions to the survivors’ material needs, and to the endurance of the victims’ memories.

Thank you. And I don’t know if there’s anybody here from Generali, and I also just want to recognize Daniel Zirifsky (sp?) who is an attorney with Howard, Irman, White & McCalls (sp?) here in Seattle, and Howard Irman, which is a Seattle law firm, is affiliated with the New York class-action suit whose attorneys have testified at these various hearings. So I just wanted to recognize Mr. Zirifsky and he’s here if anyone has any questions. Also, we have another letter from – we have a statement from Mr. Richard Williamson on behalf of Allianz. If Mr. Williamson would come forward?

Mr. Richard Williamson. Good afternoon, Commissioner Senn and other distinguished Commissioners and Superintendents. My name is Richard Williamson, I had the pleasure of appearing before you in Washington in September. We represent some of the companies, that are European insurance companies that are subsidiaries under German law of Allianz AG and have been named as defendants in the proposed class-action that’s pending in New York, to which Commissioner Senn just referred. What I would like to do, for those that weren’t present in Washington when I testified on behalf of Allianz AG, is to briefly touch on some of the points that were relevant and that are relevant now, and then give you a progress report on Allianz’s efforts to try to locate any valid unpaid insurance claims. My client is very sympathetic to the plight of the victims of Nazi terror. How could you not be? We heard heart-rending stories the last time, in Washington, in September. We heard some more today. The senior management of Allianz, who were only born during or after World War II, is committed to resolving this matter, and as I say, to paying any valid unpaid claim. I want to ask you to keep in mind, we certainly are, the fact that this is not a matter that has been unaddressed. The restitution process was begun by the Allies, that is, the United States, Great Britain and France after World War II. It was continued on with the German government that was established, and then by the Federal Republic of Germany. In the 50s, the 60s, and the early 70s claims were still being processed because the West German government established and took over legal and financial responsibility of such claims. Commissioner Senn, our client would like to express appreciation for the work that you and the other insurance commissioners have been doing in identifying potential insurance claimants and bringing them to our attention. Indeed, even before the first hearing in Washington, Allianz had met with Superintendent Levin in New York and established a methodology for how to best process claims and inquiries. And that’s been working, since as you know, New York set up the Holocaust claims processing office, any individuals they have had come to them have been able to come forward and contact directly the client and see whether or not there is any records with which to process the claim. Let me give you a progress report now. I talked last time about the Allianz helpline for Holocaust inquiries that was established, and that is still in effect. It functions worldwide, multi-lingual, 24 hours. The update. About 800 persons, as I sit here now today, have made inquiries through the helpline concerning about 1800 possible policies. Very often they’re just not sure whether there was a policy, and they’re not even sure they’re calling the right company, but they’re making the calls. The reasons we’ve had 800 people calling about 1800 possible policies is that some people ask, obviously, about more than one policy or policies. Approximately 1600 of those have no connection with any Allianz subsidiary. In many instances in talking with the people, and doing some investigation, the helpline personnel and representatives were able to direct them to the company that may be actually what they are looking for. Indeed we heard some of that today, from people who’ve already spoken with you. Of the 200 or so remaining claims, they break down with roughly 30 of them having been previously paid out to the policyholders or their beneficiaries that obviously the caller was unaware of. Likewise about 100 or so of them by the government of the Federal Republic of Germany. The claims are already paid. The remainder of the inquiries are still being researched and to date some have been established sufficiently so that as a matter of good will, even though it’s not legally obligated to do so, payments will be offered to those people. So far a number of them appear to be coming from Israel and the United States of the individuals we’ve identified. Again the company will publish advertisements so that anybody who didn’t see the first round of them, now that additional attention has been called, by the NAIC working group and others, they will be able to call in, as I said, almost 2000 people have done. The Arthur Anderson independent examination of all of the files continues and it’s scheduled to be ready to issue a report in March of next year. So that work that I addressed last time, and that’s covered in the statement I have given to you, is continuing and beginning to be wrapped up. In addition, Professor Joe Feldman of the University of California at Berkeley, about whom I told you, who was retained by Allianz before there was a lawsuit, to do an independent study of the company, of its history, of what relationship did it have with Nazi Germany during the War and also during the post-War restitution period. Professor Feldman is working on that. He has a team of historians working with him and expects to have, in book form, a report by 1998. Finally, and I don’t mean to be rushing, but I know you’re pressed for time, Allianz has already been in discussion with major Jewish organizations, including the World Jewish Congress. The World Jewish Congress has testified twice before the NAIC, I believe and greatly distinguished, I believe, and we believe, itself in its work. In addition, we wish to assure the NAIC commissioners and those present in the room today, that our client is guided by fundamental ethical precepts. The management is committed to taking the necessary steps to address these, but we have to do it in a rational way, and that is what we are trying to do. We have prepared a more detailed statement that we would ask to be made part of the record today and given you a copy. Thank you very much.

WRITTEN STATEMENT BY RICHARD A. WILLIAMSON

ON BEHALF OF ALLIANZ AG

FOR NAIC HEARING IN SEATTLE, WASHINGTON ON DECEMBER 8, 1997

Chairperson Senn, distinguished Commissioners and ladies and gentlemen. My name is Richard Williamson. I am a partner in the law firm of Flemming, Zulack & Williamson, LLP. My law firm represents four European insurance companies that are subsidiaries of Allianz AG. They are among 16 insurance carriers that are named as defendants in the proposed class action in New York, all of which are alleged to have avoided payment to beneficiaries on life insurance policies issued in the 1920’s, 30’s and 40’s and held by victims of the Nazi regime or their families.

As you will recall, I appeared before you in Washington, D.C. in September. Like everyone else in the room, I am profoundly moved by the compelling testimony that is offered by Holocaust survivors or their family members. None of us who were fortunate enough to be born here in the United States can ever fully appreciate the horror that was inflicted by the Nazi regime. Over 50 years have passed. Yet the history we are reminded of by these witnesses is as vivid as if it occurred yesterday. We must ensure that our children and grandchildren as well are fully aware of the atrocities that people are capable of inflicting upon others.

My client, all its management and employees, are very sympathetic to the tragedy that befell these victims of Nazi terror. Its senior management, while only born during or after World War II, is committed to resolving this matter as expeditiously as possible. They are actively confronting the corporate past of Allianz AG both openly and honestly.

As I told you in September, Allianz AG is committed to a timely settlement of any valid, unpaid life insurance claims that may still be open. It is particularly important that elderly people should not be kept waiting for the results of lengthy court proceedings.

As I stated in Washington, D.C., there is a significant distinction between the case against the Swiss banks which has generated so much public attention, and that involving the European insurance companies. Given the chaotic conditions that existed in central Europe after the War, there may be some life policies for which beneficiaries have never received payment. At the same time it should be made clear that Allianz AG subsidiaries are not sitting upon any dormant assets. The government of Nazi Germany made every effort to confiscate the cash value of life insurance policies held by Jewish people in Germany and other victims of the regime. The Government of the Federal Republic of Germany included these policies as part of its postwar restitution program. The restitution process was begun by the Allies (the United States, Great Britain and France) in Germany after World War II and has been continued by the Federal Republic, which assumed legal and financial responsibility for life insurance policies confiscated in Nazi Germany.

In the case of the Eastern European countries, the insurance assets of all companies together with the policy records were taken over by the respective Soviet-controlled communist governments or state-controlled insurance institutions when the insurance business was nationalized.

Commissioner Senn, I would like to voice our appreciation for the excellent work that you and the other Insurance Commissioners have done so far in identifying potential insurance claimants and bringing them to our attention. Even before the NAIC began to address this issue, Allianz AG had already met with New York Superintendent Levin and agreed on how to best process inquiries and claims from Holocaust survivors and their heirs.

It is important for you to know that Allianz AG is indeed making progress in resolving this matter, and today we would like to provide you with a progress report on what has happened since I last testified on September 22^nd.

As part of its commitment to a timely settlement of open claims, as I mentioned in September, Allianz AG established the Allianz Helpline for Holocaust Enquiries, with multilingual, 24-hour telephone centers in North America, Europe and Israel. The Helpline enables people to make enquiries and file claims directly in an unbureaucratic manner.

So far, Allianz AG has received telephone enquiries from some 800 persons with search requests for more than 1,800 possible policies. In nearly 1,600 of the requests, no connection could be established to any Allianz AG subsidiary. In many of these cases, however, Allianz AG was able to forward the claim to another insurance company that might have issued a policy, based on information provided by the caller.

Of the 200 or so remaining claims 30 were found to have been previously paid out directly to policyholders or beneficiaries. Fifty-nine enquiries involved policies that were settled by the government of the Federal Republic of Germany as part of its postwar restitution program. As I mentioned earlier, the restitution program commenced in Germany after World War II and has been continued by the Federal Republic, which took over legal responsibility for life insurance policies confiscated in Nazi Germany.

There are a number of enquiries that are still being researched. To date, in 7 of these, documentation has been found suggesting that a policy probably existed and that a policyholder or beneficiary did not receive payment from the company itself nor had there been a settlement through the German government. Though there is no obligation to do so, payment will be offered to the claimants on these policies. Of these cases, 5 of the claimants who are to receive payments reside in Israel, and 2 in the United States.

Allianz AG has advertised its Helpline in publications in Israel and the United States. Allianz AG will again publish advertisements with the number of the Allianz Helpline for Holocaust Enquiries. Today we would like to ask the Commissioners to make this number more widely known to your constituents who may be unsure of how to pursue their enquiries. If someone is calling from the United States, the toll free number is 1-800-411-0118.

Again, as I mentioned in my testimony in September, the Arthur Andersen auditing firm has been conducting an independent examination of company files from that period. Fifteen Allianz employees have been working full-time for the past seven months to assist Arthur Andersen’s team of trained professionals. The results of Arthur Andersen’s research will be discussed with major Jewish organizations and are to be published in March, 1998.

Earlier this year, Professor Gerald D. Feldman of the University of California at Berkeley agreed to compile an independent account of the company’s history in Nazi Germany and during the postwar restitution period. Professor Feldman has already begun his research in Allianz AG’s historical archives, and a team of historians under his guidance has conducted initial research in Nazi government documents kept in archives in Berlin, Moscow and Warsaw. Additional research is planned in archives in the United States, France, Austria, and the Czech Republic. Professor Feldman hopes to complete his research and publish his report in book form by 1998.

In order to make some of the complicated history involved in these discussions easier to understand we will provide you with a summary chronology of the complex historical events under discussion.

Allianz AG is also in discussions with major Jewish organizations. Prominent among these is the World Jewish Congress, which is sending two internationally recognized representatives to Allianz AG to expedite the process of seeking a just and timely settlement of potential life insurance claims. The World Jewish Congress has testified twice before the NAIC and has greatly distinguished itself in it work.

In closing, Allianz AG wants to assure the National Association of Insurance Commissioners and all those present in the room today that its activities are guided by fundamental ethical precepts. Its management is fully committed to taking all necessary steps to resolve this important issue. This is a basic matter of integrity for Allianz AG, its senior officers and the tens of thousands of people who work for the company’s subsidiaries around the world.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much, Mr. Williamson. Does anybody have any questions?

Director Jay Angoff. What exactly do you all do when you get an inquiry like some of the ones that we’ve heard about today? We got an inquiry, the thrust of which is, I don’t have a policy, I don’t have a policy number, but my father was a farmer, my father was a businessman, and I just know that he had insurance, either because the law said he had to have insurance, or because my father or mother told me he had insurance. How do you all proceed with a question like that?

Mr. Williamson. The answer is, obviously, you ask for information, and they have a set of questions they go through, and indeed Allianz has worked with the Holocaust claims processing office to establish a similar questionnaire. While you were asking your question I just pulled out a letter from them that is very helpful, that is the Holocaust claims processing office. Because it gives us the full name of the person they believe is insured, they give us a possible alias, date of birth, name of business, place of business, whatever information the person has, you take it and work with it the best you can.

Director Angoff. That’s what I’m getting at. What does Allianz do? When Allianz gets this information, what does Allianz do?

Mr. Williamson. The answer is that it then goes to its records and sees, for example, with the event of an insured, can we find any evidence that there was an insurance policy issued, let’s say for example it’s a life insurance policy, on the life of this insured? We look through the archives.

Director Angoff. What records do you have from before 1945?

Mr. Williamson. We have life insurance policy files that Arthur Anderson has been examining, that go back for this period, 1920s, 30s, 40s, and we look through. In some instances there are indices, there are Arthur Anderson people working there. There are 15 full-time Allianz people working with the Arthur Anderson people, so the inquiry is forwarded to those individuals and they look. That’s how they’ve succeeded in finding some valid claims. So that’s the answer. The more information the individual can give us the better.

Director Angoff. The reason I asked is that I’ve gotten letters in my department, [from people] who have the policy, the policy from the 30s, and have written to the insurance company – not Allianz that I know about – but have written to the insurance company sometime in the late 50s or 60s and the insurance company essentially said go jump in the lake. Now I don’t think that anybody’s asking you to just give money to people gratuitously. But there’s a difference between making people come up with evidence and on the other hand being aggressive and really searching Allianz’s records and doing as much as possible proactively rather than forcing people in their 70s and 80s to go back and produce everything without the company helping.

Mr. Williamson. I think you’re right. And I think the answer to that is take a look at the evidence that is before you. I’m here today, I was here in September, Allianz has got the helpline being advertised. It’s working with Arthur Anderson. It didn’t have to do that. To go through the files, to see if they can find any valid unpaid claims. It researches the inquiries when they’re made. I don’t know what else you would have it do. It’s working with the World Jewish Congress. It’s tried to be as proactive and responsible as it can. Fortunately with the anecdote of your experience you didn’t say that Allianz behaved that way. One gentleman, he testified first today, was Mr. Henry Friedman, he indicated that he received a letter from Allianz, I think in September of this year, and he has read an excerpt from that letter which really stuck me, because I don’t understand how that could be a reflection of the letter. So I gave him my card and asked him, if he would, to please call me and I will try to get to the bottom of it, because there must have been a misunderstanding, based on that one sentence.

Commissioner Senn. I’m holding the letter right here and it’s written on Allianz letterhead. It says life insurance policies are administered in Munich. Our partners in Munich checked the archives and databases of their branches in Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Cologne, Liepzig, Munich and Stuttgart. Then it says the archives contain no, or only a few documents, referring to the years prior to 1945. The same applies to the databases. Signed by a representative of Allianz.

Mr. Williamson. You say that’s [not] a life insurance [policy]?

Commissioner Senn. Yes.

Mr. Williamson. That’s the key. I’m talking about life insurance policies and I’m telling you we have over a million documents related to life insurance policies. I haven’t seen the letter, but I’m happy to clarify it. If he’s not talking about life insurance, then we’re not talking about the same thing.

Commissioner Senn. So your archives are just life insurance?

Mr. Williamson. They are the archives of Allianz Leben Versicherungen IG, which is the company that I’m talking about, that has the helpline. It was dealing with life insurance claims. There are other companies that sold property insurance claims but that’s not what we’ve been talking about here. So I hope that answers your question.

Commissioner Senn. Are there any other questions? Go ahead.

[inaudible from the audience]

Mr. Williamson. May I respond? <yes, go ahead> Of course, I remember your testimony vividly. And you just said again that Allianz bought Phoenix. There are a number of companies with the name Phoenix, with different spellings of it, at that time in history, so there is no certainty that the company I’m talking about actually bought that particular entity. Also I heard you say, and you just said again, that the actual birthdate was the critical factor. Whether anything could be proved by doubling the efforts, I don’t know, but I’d be happy to try. But it is entirely possible that you’ve just got the wrong company. But I would be happy to make the same offer to you as I did to the other gentleman.

[inaudible from the audience]

Mr. Williamson. Sure. [If] we can arrange to get a copy of it, I’d be happy to look into it.

Commissioner Senn. We’ll get a copy of it made for you in the copy room. Let me ask you to wrap up, we’ve still got two more insurers, and the committee still has to conduct our business, so I want to move it along.

Mr. Williamson. Thank you. I’m done.

Commissioner Senn. Let me call on Mr. Jim Davis, representing Basle Leben. Mr. Davis. And Frances Maye is here, so just hang on one minute, Frances.

Mr. Jim Davis. Good afternoon. I’m here today with a message for survivors and for the relatives of victims who are no longer with us. I traveled from New York to hear your voices, and with the hope that you would hear mine, and come to believe, as I do, that Basle Leben is a good company, sincere in its commitment to pay what it owes. I’ve listened closely to your personal memoirs, and I would ask you to grant me a personal response. When what some call the class-action first began, I did what most lawyers do in every case. I tried to see it from the perspective of the other side. A lawyer I work with, a Dutch Jew, who’s mother was at Bergen-Belsen, helped me to paint a picture. My mother’s pain, he said, that can be described in detail. But there are no words to describe my pain. It seems paltry by comparison, so some won’t even acknowledge it. He went on to tell me of lives expecting the worst, lives where there are never glasses half full, only glasses half empty. Of lives without roots. No grandparents, no family reunions, not even gravestones. I take up these images, without wishing to tread on solemn ground, I mean only to assure those survivors, and their relatives, that we acknowledge your pain and suffering and that we will respond to your claims with the utmost care. At the same time, I would ask for a little understanding and attention from you. The massive case in New York that is the subject of this meeting alleges, in substance, that European insurers, including Basle Leben, were accomplices of the Third Reich. In a world where the Holocaust will always set the standard for human depravity, could they have alleged anything worse? I don’t think so. And I’m here to say that the accusation is untrue. I’d like you to hear me clearly on this. Not true. Not so. Basle Leben did not suffer the Holocaust. You did. But it did suffer the devastation of the Third Reich and its aftermath. And it was not Hitler’s accomplice. And it does not have a practice of denying claims by survivors of the Holocaust or anyone else. Now the New York action sees it differently. And it aspires to new standards for recovery. Last month in Skokie it was suggested that the absence of policies should not matter. Clearly, part of the problem that brings us here today is the problem of proof. In its dealings with individual claimants seeking the amicable resolution of their claims, Basle Leben is attempting to apply some balance to the problem. We recognize that policies and related documents are, at best, hard to come by. At the same time, we also recognize that the payment of reasonable claims requires reasonable proof. That’s simply good claims policy, and Basle Leben is applying it to the claims at issue with compassion and fairness. Among other things, in response to claims received both before and after the New York action commenced, the company searches its files, throughout Central Europe, when it has nothing more to go on than words from a loved one. On a case-by-case basis, it has attempted in good faith to determine the kind of proof that is necessary to resolve the tension between the traditional obligation to require an original policy and the plight of survivors who may have valid claims but lack traditional proof. On the same basis, Basle Leben has also seen its way clear to give up the benefit of the statute of limitations. That is also good claims policy, and I would agree, and in return I would try to ask you to understand that it is never good claims policy to pay what you don’t owe. That is one reason why Basle Leben, together with other Swiss insurers, has made a substantial voluntary contribution to the special fund for needy victims of the Holocaust. We can’t pay claims that we don’t owe, but we can attempt to ease your hardship. Unfortunately, what we have heard in response is that the fund is not enough. And for some, the fund is not enough because it does not dispense justice. Justice. For all those who are seeking justice, I would ask you to bear in mind that the New York action sets the framework for the working out of justice. The practical framework. It’s a framework where records matter, where the statute of limitations matter, and where pain and suffering usually don’t matter until liability is established, and sometimes not at all. You might also keep the obvious in mind, that at some point the case will end, and when it ends you will have the system called justice, and where will it leave you? What if justice simply piles disappointment on top of pain? All of [the people] here, particularly the commissioners and the lawyers, should be asking that question. The defendants in Europe do not have the market cornered on grave responsibilities. I will close with two thoughts. First, today in New York a distinguished panel is meeting to discuss dormant accounts and hidden assets. If the meeting has anything to do with insurance companies, I hope someone will explain that insurance companies don’t hoard or hide policy proceeds. [If] they could not be paid to the named policyholder or beneficiary they were distributed to the accounts of all other policyholders. In other words, Basle Leben does not profit from the denial of claims or the lapse of policies. Second, a word to the commissioners. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and for the focus you’ve given to this extremely serious problem. I believe it’s to your credit that you’ve kept these issues in the public eye without over-reaching. I also thank you for recognizing that there is a public trust issue here, and that it covers a broad constituency of Americans – policyholders, claimants and carriers. Thank you all. If you’re not represented by counsel and you’re a survivor or a relative and believe you’re an heir or beneficiary under a Basle Leben policy, I’d be glad to talk with you after the meeting.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much Mr. Davis. Are there any questions?

Director Angoff. Mr. Davis, I’m not that familiar with your company. About what share of the market did you all have in Germany during the War?

Mr. Davis. Not much, but I’m not all that familiar with the market shares, sir. I should tell you, by the way, some of you know the company under its English name, which was the Beloise Life Insurance Company Ltd. But I can’t tell you what its market share was during the War except, if you don’t mind my saying here imprecisely, not very large.

Director Angoff. Could you give us some type of idea of the kind of records your company has before 1935?

Mr. Davis. Not many records, but as I said, it has been the company’s policy to search its records, and we have searched our records at our branches throughout Central Europe, including branches in Luxembourg, in France, in Brussels and in Bad Hamburg. The company has records, it has searched its records when it receives claims, I want you to know, and I don’t mean to strike any comparison here with Allianz, but I will tell you that although a birthdate helps, it is not sine qua non. We search our records when we get a claim. Some records we don’t have. The company has a document retention policy. And documents have gone the way of the wind, so to speak. But, the documents that it has are searched. And as you may know, there is a Swiss historical commission set up, and by law documents cannot be destroyed. The documents we have had are documents we still have. And those are the documents that are searched.

Commissioner Senn. Are there any other questions? Mr. Davis I have one very quick question. I appreciate your statement and your coming here today. Let me pose a hypothetical. You’re a department sitting around this table, and the various states have a consumer with a claim from Basle Leben. You talked about searching the records as a matter of course. As regulators, as insurance commissioners, we regularly send out examiners to look at the books of a company often when there is an issue or a claim. Would Basle Leben have any objection to any one of these departments representing a claim from their respective states coming to look at the books and records?

Mr. Davis. You mean coming to Europe? I’ll ask and I’ll send a letter and tell you very promptly. It’s not an issue that I’m prepared to address here today. I will say that if you’re interested in life insurance records, you would have to go to Central Europe since our cousins of Basle Leben here in the states are property and casualty companies. There are no life insurance companies here.

Commissioner Senn. If you can get an answer that’d be great.

Mr. Davis. I will get you an answer promptly.

Mr. Paul D’Angelo. May I ask a question? <yes> How would your client handle a situation where if someone were to come forward with a copy of a policy that had been issued by your company for which you could find no record of having paid on the policy or of the policy having lapsed?

Mr. Davis. Well, it’s hard to speak hypothetically. As you may know, one of the things insurance companies try to do is determine whether they’ve already paid the policy. And I’m sure, based on debt to the truth here, if Basle Leben was handed a copy of a policy, it would not simply say here’s the money. It would make additional inquiries designed to establish any number of hypothetical facts that might be important. For example, if the policy copy was presented by an heir, it would want to know if that person was the only heir, if the claim was being made jointly or not. It would probably ask to see correspondence, if there were any, related to the policy. In other words, it would want the claimant to make some effort, if that were possible, to come forward with whatever documents they had. I will tell you, however, that the company is very clear that an original policy is not the sine qua non. The company will work with claimants to try to ascertain whether or not the payment of a claim on a policy is just. And it goes without saying that it is possible that a claim could be presented that would be bona fide and valid for purposes of payment where no policy is presented. We had a situation this year, there haven’t been many claims, by the way, but I am familiar with a situation in which a claimant came forward with an envelope, and the envelope bore reference to a policy, and coincidentally there was a policy number on it. If we had been in a position to take that number and go to the records, and determine, for example, that the claim had not been paid and that there was evidence of a policy on the books of Basle Leben, that policy would’ve been paid. In this one instance it involved a professor from the Midwest, from Evanston, and our records showed that that the policy had already been paid.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you. I think we had a question over here?

Director Angoff. Yes I would. Both you and Mr. Williamson, the representative from Allianz, I’m working on a report that is done, in draft, for this working group, and more specifically, I’m working on some testimony from a fellow named Mr. Hunt, who represents Risk International Services, which is apparently some form of an insurance archeology service that does work to try to reconstruct data, and insurance policies and coverages from insurance companies. So my question to you and to Mr. Williamson, is have either of your companies taken it upon yourself to retain the services of an insurance archeologist such as this to attempt to reconstruct some of the data and some of the policies in effect from that period of time?

[Mr. Williamson has already left, but let me say that Allianz is conducting, I believe that, it’s not a study with which I’m familiar, but …]

Mr. Davis. Let me tell you what Basle Leben has done. Since my involvement with the case, I’ve become acquainted with a man named Hans Kramer, who is a former Swiss prosecutor who eventually left the Swiss practice and went into business and in time became a managing director with Basle Leben. And Mr. Kramer retired, and when the class-action first began, and actually even before the class-action began, the company got a working group together to ascertain the history, and to try to put the documents together under the supervision of the legal division of Basle Leben, has been attempting to put the pieces together. He personally has traveled to all the company’s branches to search the documents there, or directed the efforts of local administrators at the Basle Leben branches throughout Central Europe. We haven’t commissioned a study by a private professor. We haven’t hired Arthur Anderson. Perhaps the smaller number of claims we have justifies the in-house attention that’s being given to the problem. I think what’s important is the attention that’s being given to the problem is in good faith and it’s energetic and vigorous.… [The Allianz response was inaudible from the audience]….

Director Angoff. I guess I’m confused. Who’s directing the search? You guys or the other party? Who brought in Arthur Anderson?

Commissioner Senn. Commissioner, we have Risk International here and we’re going to ask them in a few minutes to talk a little bit about that.

Mr. Davis. Ms. Senn, may I ask a question?

Commissioner Senn. Sure, but you know what, we’re running out of time.

Mr. Davis I’d just like to ask a question, because I promised you a letter. Could you tell me why you want to come to Europe and look at Basle Leben’s records?

Commissioner Senn. Well, it’s customary, often, for the department to send out an examiner to actually look at records. We do audits, financial exams, we do market conduct exams, and many times companies have assured us that everything’s in order, and it is clearly within our charge and within our responsibility to make the direct examination, so that’s why I asked the question, because that’s how the departments do business.

Mr. Davis. Have you considered getting in touch with European regulatory officials for these parties, who have jurisdiction over these insurers?

Commissioner Senn. You know, that’s a very interesting question, and it’s something I’m going to talk about later in the meeting. I have actually talked about that with one of the regulatory officials in Europe, and their approach is a little different than it is in this country in terms of the reasons for which they look at books and records. Thank you very much. Let me just make one point which I’m sure you were not trying to make, there seems to be some confusion. The class-action lawsuit is the lawsuit which was filed in New York by attorneys representing a number of survivors. What the working group is doing is not connected to the class-action suit. They have come and talked to us and told us what they’re doing, but the Commissioners are doing their own independent work with their oversight and authority to work on this issue, just to make that separation [clear], because I think something you said was a little confusing to people. Thank you very much, Mr. Davis. Okay, we have a representative from Winterthur Life, Mr. William Brodsky. I just want to say a special thanks to the insurers for coming because we have not had them at other hearings and I wanted to give them an opportunity to present before the committee. Mr. Brodsky.

Mr. William Brodsky. Good afternoon, commissioners, my name is William Brodsky, I’m a partner in the New York City law firm of Baden, Claimer, Hudson and Brodsky (sp?). I appear today on behalf of Winterthur Life, a life insurance company based in the city of Winterthur, Switzerland, and operating in some European countries. Winterthur Life has no business in the United States. We’re not licensed to sell life insurance in the United States. Winterthur is aware of the efforts of the National Association of Insurance Commissioners to clarify the issue of uncollected insurance claims by Holocaust victims and their heirs. Winterthur Life was named in July 1997 as part of a potential class-action suit filed in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, and my firm represents Winterthur Life in that lawsuit. The suit was filed by attorneys for a proposed class of individuals who claim that European life insurance companies failed, in some instances, to pay benefits or to otherwise honor their obligations to individuals who had purchased policies in Europe prior to or during World War II. The only person named in the complaint as having a complaint against Winterthur Life was Rudy Rosenberg. The complaint asserted that Winterthur Life had "failed and refused" to honor his father’s policy. Mr. Rosenberg testified before this working group on September 22, 1997 in Washington, D.C. that his father, Hilel, had purchased a policy from Winterthur Life in Belgium in 1942. That the family went into hiding from the Nazis, and that after the War he and his mother emigrated to the United States, he in 1949 and his mother in 1952. But his father remained in Brussels until his death in 1988. Mr. Rosenberg further claimed that neither his father, nor his mother, was ever paid for that policy by Winterthur Life. Contrary to Mr. Rosenberg’s assertions, […end of tape…] Mr. Rosenberg came to Winterthur after the War and obtained a duplicate insurance policy. He assigned the policy to his wife in 1945 in compliance with a Belgian court decree, court-ordered, pardon me, as part of the couple’s divorce. Further, the file indicates that Mrs. Rosenberg redeemed that policy and was paid in 1947. She redeemed her own policy in 1952. These facts have been communicated to plaintiff’s counsel. Winterthur Life has requested that the plaintiff withdraw their claim against Winterthur Life and that Mr. Rosenberg publicly acknowledge these facts. While plaintiff’s counsel have not denied these facts, they have refused to withdraw Mr. Rosenberg as a plaintiff. Winterthur Life firmly believes that it is not guilty of the allegations made in the class-action. Furthermore, Winterthur Life believes that it acted throughout World War II, and to the present day, in full adherence to the highest standards of business ethics and human rights. Winterthur Life asserts that there was no institutional pattern of objectionable activities, nor was the company part of any conspiracy to assist the Nazis in depriving Jews of their money and property as has also been claimed by the plaintiffs. Winterthur Life has always taken seriously and conscientiously any question related to its practices and obligations, past and present, and certainly intends to do so in the future. The company is always open to investigating claims and will honor its obligations. Winterthur Life has an excellent reputation, and cherishes the goodwill of its many policyholders, business associates and employees. The company looks forward to complete vindication in the New York lawsuit.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much, Mr. Brodsky. Are there any questions? Yes, Director Angoff?

Director Angoff. Mr. Brodsky, Allianz has set up a helpline for Holocaust inquiries and an 800 number. Do you have anything similar?

Mr. Brodsky. No sir.

Director Angoff. Allianz has hired Arthur Anderson to conduct an independent examination of their company’s files from the wartime period and pre-War period. Have you done anything similar?

Mr. Brodsky. No sir.

Director Angoff. Exactly what records do you all have [from] before the War, do you know?

Mr. Brodsky. I really don’t know, sir.

Director Angoff. Do you feel any obligation to check them when people will come to you with an inquiry like the ones we’ve heard today, when people say, I don’t have a policy, I don’t have a policy number, but my father was a farmer, he was a manufacturer, and I know he had insurance. What exactly would you do when you get that type of inquiry?

Mr. Brodsky. Well, so far we haven’t received those types of inquiries. The only allegation made against us was Rudy Rosenberg, and we checked our files and found out his claim was paid. If we get a claim that’s sufficiently identifiable, we will search our records and determine whether, as Mr. Davis pointed out, injustice should be paid.

Director Angoff. You’ve gotten no claims from survivors alleging that they have had, their parents or grandparents had insurance with Winterthur?

Mr. Brodsky. I can’t say that for sure, we’re talking about a 50-year period since World War II is over, and I can’t say whatever might have happened during…

Director Angoff. Within the last year, let’s say.

Mr. Brodsky. I, I know of no such claim. I am not speaking on behalf of the company, because I do not know the answer to that question.

Director Angoff. Good. Let me just ask you concerning the previous witness, what would Winterthur’s attitude be if a group of U.S. insurance commissioners wanted to come over and conduct a market conduct examination of Winterthur.

Mr. Brodsky. I do not know. I would have to check, and I have never heard such a suggestion before today, and we would have to inquire.

Director Angoff. Good. Could you write us back on that and get us an answer on that?

Mr. Brodsky. I’ll consult with my client and see what it is they wish to do.

Director Angoff. And you will give us an answer.

Mr. Brodsky. That’s correct, I mean I’ll respond to you in writing.

Commissioner Senn. Mr. Van Cooper from Vermont has a question.

Mr. Tom Van Cooper. I just have a question for all the insurance representatives, and particularly because the representative from Allianz…[inaudible]…what efforts have been made to create a database from the existing records? <paraphrase>

Mr. Brodsky. I don’t know what steps, if any, Winterthur Life has taken to do that. I do know that the Swiss government has established an investigatory commission which requires all businesses in Switzerland to search their archives and to report data concerning what happened during the War to the government. I know that my client, Winterthur Life, is cooperating in that endeavor. Whatever the parameters of that are, I am not sure, but Winterthur Life has not set up its own database to attempt to resolve every unsolved or unpaid policy.

…[inaudible comments and conversation from audience]…

<paraphrase> Mr. Williamson. Allianz has done what you’ve suggested.

Commissioner Senn. Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Brodsky. Robert Raives, from Zurich Life.

Mr. Robert Raives. Thank you. I know we’re at the end of a long session.

Commissioner Senn. I know, and in 30 seconds I’m going to figure out how we’re going to accomplish what we were supposed to accomplish the last hour, but I wanted to give you an opportunity.

Mr. Raives. On behalf of Zurich Life Insurance Company, I wish to thank you for arranging this meeting and allowing us to present a statement. I am Robert Raives, attorney and counsel with the law firm of Gilbert, Seagall and Young, which represents Zurich Life in the class-action you’ve heard about against 16 European insurance companies. The Zurich has great sympathy for the victims of the Holocaust and their descendants. I can assure you today that it has always been the company’s practice to thoroughly investigate and evaluate any and all inquiries on an insurance policy from the period right before, during and following World War II. The company remains committed to doing that. We are guided in these matters, as we have continuously been, by just and compassionate judgment. For example, we have not and do not insist on the production of original policies, nor death certificates on claims involving Holocaust victims. I am here to reaffirm Zurich’s compassion for these victims and their descendants and to make it clear that it is the company’s intention to honor all just claims by victim policyholders and their beneficiaries. Having said that, I am also here to explain that Zurich feels that it has acted properly at all relevant times. As I sit here talking to you, we know of no outstanding claim from beneficiaries of the Holocaust victims pending against our company. There are two main claimants in the class-action that assert claims against Zurich. However, we have not been presented with any information to establish that those individuals’ ancestors were in fact Zurich policyholders, nor are we aware that these individuals ever made claims against the company prior to the commencement of the class-action. We have no record of ever having heard from them. Zurich Life was founded under the name of Wiedl (?) Life Insurance Company in 1922 in Switzerland, entered the German life market by opening a branch in 1926. It was always a minor participant in the German market during the pre-War and World War II period. For example: market share. In 1938 there were but 7,000 Zurich Life policies out of the total German life market of 31 million policies. This represented .02% of the total market. At no time prior to the War did its share of the market exceed .05%. Zurich Life has never been engaged in the banking business. Any gold assets that it held were acquired largely before the War, in keeping with laws pertaining to maintaining security for policyholders and were deposited with the authorities regulating insurance companies. It never traded in gold, nor did Zurich Life profit from the Nazi seizure of property belonging to victims of their persecution. Since the end of the War, investigations have been undertaken by the company, both at the behest of the Swiss government and on the company’s own initiative. In 1962 the company instituted a search of its records to identify dormant policies in the Swiss portfolio that may have belonged to Holocaust victims. After an extensive investigation, there were only five instances where the possibility could not be excluded that the policy in question may have belonged to a Holocaust victim. Following unsuccessful searches for beneficiaries, the cash value of those five policies was transferred to the Swiss government, and we understand was distributed to various Jewish charities for the aid of Holocaust survivors. It should be noted that it has been and continues to be general company policy that in the case of dormant policies, to initiate an in-depth investigation to locate beneficiaries. If those efforts prove unsuccessful after a number of years, the money is transferred to a policyholder dividend account and is not a company asset. The company does not benefit by not paying a policy. It gets distributed to policyholders. In early summer of last year, Zurich Life voluntarily established a working group to investigate its business practices during World War II. It was one of the first insurance companies in Europe to do so. The investigations have disclosed that the number of policies under which benefits remain unclaimed for a long period of time is very small. In addition, the company has not found any examples of any improper business conduct in connection with handling of these policies. Moreover, the investigations have not revealed a single case in which the company denied insurance benefits to entitled descendants whose relatives may have become Holocaust victims. Not one. More recently, as a voluntary act of solidarity, Zurich has made a substantial contribution in early 1997 to a special fund for victims of the Holocaust and their descendents. This fund, a humanitarian fund for Holocaust victims, was sponsored by members of the Swiss trade and industrial association, and amounts to some 273 million Swiss francs. It was established to benefit victims and their descendents in immediate need. A portion of this fund was transferred to the World Jewish Restitution Organization for survivors of the Holocaust in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. Zurich Life will continue to do everything it can to carefully and systematically evaluate any specific inquiries on insurance policies and will continue to exercise the sympathetic judgment that has always been the hallmark of the company’s policy. I should note, however, that the company has received very few inquiries regarding potential claims of Holocaust victims or their descendents, and I would reiterate, has not received even one specific demand for payment from alleged Holocaust policyholders or their descendents. This again includes the two individuals in the lawsuit I mentioned earlier who now claim to be beneficiaries under Zurich Life policies. We would not logically expect to receive such demands in light of the number of policies written during those years and in light of the results of our exhaustive investigation in this issue. Zurich Life shares with Holocaust survivors and the descendents of Holocaust victims a deep and genuine desire to resolve, once and for all, issues of just compensation that remain from that period of unspeakable tragedy. We hope that by our brief appearance here today, we have demonstrated our commitment to that objective, and I’m sorry I raced through that, but I sensed a sense of urgency here and if I can just sum it up, we had a very small problem, we dealt with it, and we don’t understand where we go from here except to stand here and wait for someone to come to us and say we have a policy. We are equipped, we have the records to deal with it, and we’re waiting to hear from you.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you very much. Are there any questions? I hope not. Okay. Let me just say this. I want to give Ms. Maye an opportunity in just one minute to finish up, because she did come here, but I’m going to, in 30 seconds do what we normally do in an hour, let me explain. It was the charge of the [Special Insurance Issues] E Committee for us to hold some hearings, research this issue and come back with a report. And I think the only urgency is whether or not the working group will continue. I think by virtue of the testimony we have, the virtue that we can’t seem to get done in a two-hour hearing, and that we’re just beginning to ask some of the important questions, I think that my sense is that the working group does want to continue, and I guess anybody who doesn’t feel this way should jump up now and talk afterwards, but I don’t think that’s an issue. So to that end, I’ve prepared a draft report to the E Committee, which will go to the E Committee as a draft, since we haven’t had a chance to discuss it, and I don’t think that’s going to be a problem. There are three recommendations in the draft report [that] we’ve passed out to everybody yesterday, you can spend some more time with it. One recommendation is that we continue the working group so that we can complete our interim meeting process. California, a request from Pennsylvania, hopefully New York, so that’s the first thing. The second recommendation is that the working group start working on a model way, not a model reg or a model law, but a model way, to approach a Holocaust claim, because these are complex claims, we talk about insurance archeology and so that’s something that the working group can offer up, and so in fact I mentioned that to Commissioner Boozell [Director of the Illinois Department of Insurance and Chair of the Special Insurance Issues (E) Committee] and he thought that was a very good idea. And the third recommendation is that the working group continue its work so that we can sit down and have a meeting with the insurers, not as rushed, and ask them some questions and get some answers. I’ve proposed to Commissioner Boozell and to Commissioner Pomeroy [NAIC President and Commissioner of Insurance for North Dakota] that this be done in Washington, D.C., at the time of the Commissioner’s Retreat, since most of the commissioners will be in D.C. and we expect the carriers could come to D.C. Commissioner Pomeroy thought that was a good idea and asked me to give him an answer within the next day or so so that he could put the time on the schedule. So those are our recommendations and that’s what’s in the report, and I just want to give everybody an opportunity to go through the report, and we’re going to ask for some more time in the E Committee tomorrow so that it can be discussed, and that’s the way we’re going to go forward. One additional idea is that since we have so many claims that have been filled out by the departments, to also have, in conjunction with the Commissioner’s Retreat, an interim meeting where staff comes to D.C. and takes a look at these claims and starts working on how to approach them. And that would be around the same time in D.C. So those are our ideas upon which to move forward, and I know Commissioner Duryee is waving his hand so I want to call upon him.

Commissioner Hal Duryee (Ohio). Can you get this on the record, and I think we ought to approve this report, so it goes up to E Committee. I also think that we’ve got to make certain that a charge is added for 1998, if it’s not in there already. Because a charge is the way you’ll get the authorization to proceed in 1998.

Commissioner Senn. Thank you, Commissioner Duryee.

Commissioner Duryee. I move the adoption of the report.

Commissioner Senn. Second. Any discussion? All those in favor? It’s mostly narrative, so don’t be too worried. All those in favor please say "Aye." <Aye.> Opposed? Okay. At least we’re moving forward with the report. Thank you Commissioner Duryee. So with that, we’ll give as thorough a report to the E Committee as we can. Obviously we’ll keep everybody in touch. Okay. We have to give up the room at 2:30, but Mrs. Maye did come, and why don’t you come forward, and we’ll ask you to be brief, but we want to give you our attention, and then we will adjourn. We understand you locked your keys in the car. Did you get them out? Did you get your keys? Oh, very good.

Mrs. Frances Maye. I thank you for waiting for me. I cannot be as eloquent as the people who spoke before me because I am not a lawyer, and I had a terrible time reading these letters. It’s legalese, but it’s legalese in German, and one word has 13 letters, and I have had the help of several dictionaries, but that didn’t help me. Now. My case is this. I was born in Vienna in 1921. You can quickly figure out what that adds up to. My father took, at that time, dowry insurance out. I had never heard about it, I didn’t get married in Vienna, and all I know is that he got a letter which explains that in 1957 that it doesn’t fall under restitution law, it simply, they had no obligation to fulfill that. That was number one. The other insurance, I must tell you I had the policy number, I had the name of the insurance company, and the other one was mentioned here before, Phoenix Insurance company, and I have the insurance policy number of that too. It was a special branch of Phoenix for Austria. So that is what I have, and so far as you know, nothing has happened.

Commissioner Senn. Okay. Thank you very much. I think that the point of Mrs. Maye is that she has quite a bit of documentation on which we can go on, and that they haven’t had any luck, but that’s a good example of documentation. I thank you for coming and participating. With that I’ll thank you, the committee, and I want to say a special thank you to the survivors, Mr. Henry Friedman and the group of survivors from Washington, and of course to the insurers and of course to all the participants that are here. We’re adjourned. Thanks very much.

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